Q: How Do the 'Ready to Shoot' Prices of the Canon EOS C300 and RED SCARLET-X Compare?
A: They’re basically the same.
First of all, you need to add all this stuff to the RED SCARLET-X to be ready to shoot:
Second of all, the list price of the Canon EOS C300 is $20,000. Once it hits retailers like B&H Photo, that will come down. Let’s take its closest competitor, the Sony F3, as an example: the camera’s list price is $16,800, but B&H is selling it for $13,960 ($13,160 after a rebate). So let’s take 20% as the estimated street discount, which brings the $20k camera down to $16k (which has also been a reported selling price of the C300 — probably due to confusion between MSRP and street).
The RED SCARLET-X lists for $9,750 and that is direct from RED: no discounts. However, that is a “brain only” price (though it comes with a SSD recording module, Canon lens mount, and AC adapter). After December 31st, in fact, the RED’s prices will go up. But if you include the prices of the things you’ll need to shoot in each cameras’ most basic configuration, many all of these things are included with the Canon but not with the RED. (A couple of them are not included with the Canon either, where noted).
- Camera Body
- Lens Mount
- Side Handle (RED +$950)
- Viewfinder/Screen (RED’s 5″ LCD is $1,600, though it’s probably nicer than the Canon’s EVF)
- Media Module
- Media for 1 hour of footage (a cheap $100 CF card for the Canon, but two $950 SSDs for the RED)
- Media Reader (a cheap $50 CF reader for the Canon, but a $250 REDMAG for the RED)
- Battery Charger (an extra $150 for the RED, though I’m not clear on whether the included AC adapter can also charge batteries)
- Batteries for a few hours of shooting (an extra $150 battery for the Canon, three $195 REDVOLTS for the RED)
This brings the RED up to an even $15k. As you get into more realistic battery and media numbers — I included the absolute minimum above — the SCARLET-X becomes more expensive than the C300. Which is to say nothing of the fact that the C300′s 1080P MPEG-2 files require much less computer power to edit and process in post than do the 4K R3D files (thus more expense on the back-end for the RED). Plus, I’m betting the Canon will be better in low light situations, which makes your necessary lighting budget lower (though just because you can shoot without lights does not mean you should).
Finally, while some pointed out during yesterday’s brouhaha that “the RED will be available sooner,” that remains to be seen — RED’s November 17th (for the PL mount version) and December 1st (for the Canon mount) dates are for when the SCARLET-X starts shipping. RED’s history is not one of shipping on time (not in any real quantity, at least), and on top of that some of the required accessories are backordered, so by the time you’re able to get your hands on a full SCARLET-X kit, I’m betting the C300 will be shipping in volume.
Certainly by the time RED has all of the SCARLET-X features enabled — including a basic ability like playing back the footage in-camera (yes, this is not currently possible with the $28,000 EPIC) — you can bet the C300 will be out in the wild. I’m not second-guessing my decision to order a SCARLET-X, but let’s not pretend that the RED will be ready to shoot for $10k on December 1st. For all intents and purposes, both of these cameras are $16k (without lenses), and both of them are shipping in 2012.
But only one of them’s being used to shoot The Hobbit in 3D!
UPDATE: some of the comments here and elsewhere have caused me to write Why I’m Ordering a RED SCARLET-X, and How it Relates to My Feature ‘Man-child.’ Hopefully that clarifies things.
Related Posts
- Canon's Historic Hollywood Announcement is the Canon Cinema EOS C300
- Full Specifications of the Democratizing (and Canon-Beating) RED SCARLET X Camera
- See Vincent Laforet's Stunning Canon C300 Short 'Mobius' Here
99 COMMENTS
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Great thoughts, agree with all of them. Thanks! And yes, I think the C300 is a perfectly capable camcorder. But for $20k in 2011, I believe (as you do) that they missed the mark. Upcoming post about it though you pretty much covered the bases!
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It’s quite amazing the furore going on over at EOSHD over you.
Reading many of the posts you would think that Ryan Koo had invaded Poland, not just bought a business tool to make a film.
One of the most bizarre showing of Internet sheep ignorance I have ever witnessed. I hope it’s not distracting you from more positive things in life.
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I read the first few dozen comments, then lost track. I have a movie to make, after all….
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actually, I’m surprised the blog posts are not loosing pace, and you’re still engaged in the comments sections
good for you, but I wouldn’t mind reading about scarlet and c300 elsewhere, and understand you must be really really busy right now (and for the coming months), so it would be fine for me if the blog lost some steam, as long as you keep posting about the stuff we can’t easily find elsewhere (the crowdfunding post from today) and about MC preproduction
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Again, more support here. I’ve been attacked online myself more than once, mostly when I was primarily into stills photography. I basically got run out of Flickr, where I was active on a few discussion groups, and even off the Luminous Landscape forums. I think part of it is being female, which disqualifies me from being a serious photographer because, um, breasts? (That was pretty much the gist of the final straw that led me to walk away from that forum). On Flickr, the guy who hounded me until I gave up and left basically seemed to have a problem because I had a better camera than him (I was using a digital medium format system with a monochrome-only back, and a 4×5 view camera system with a 150 megapixel scanning back, whereas he was using some prosumer DSLR or other). People can get really out of shape about that kind of thing. I find it very strange, I’ve never really got it myself. My own move toward film making and away from stills photography was partly motivated by just how nasty people seemed to be around stills, with it being extremely cut throat actually trying to get somewhere. In the movie world there does seem to be a little more default respect for what we do, though (as you unfortunately found) there are always people who are going to behave like a jerk if you upset the pecking order without permission.
Being realistic, you got a movie funded. A feature, no less, with funding through Kickstarter. More indie than indie, really — you didn’t ‘work your way up’, you found the side entrance and just went and did it. All power to you, and best of luck. I very much look forward to seeing the results! I’m also working toward my own first feature, which will be near-zero budget — I’ll be writing and directing and doing pretty much everything not in front of the camera myself. Coming in from fine art photography I can handle the DP stuff, and I’m a former professional sound engineer (music business rather than movies, but hey, close enough), and am capable of doing my own CGI and compositing. I’ll probably get some trouble for having the audacity to attempt all of that myself, but, *shrug*, whatever — if the movie sucks, *then* and only then does anyone have anything valid to say, in my not so humble opinion. Good luck, and go for it!
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Good luck, but filmmaking is a totally different art form to photography (time, movement, sound, rhythm, editing); don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready because you did fine art photography!
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Waweraw on 11.11.11 @ 1:35AM
Dear Dean Agar(i wrote this just coz it rhymes),
I hate long posts except when they say something important like this one obviously does.I agree with you on all your observations but your last one strikes me as most important; the fact that the iphone has no moire and aliasing! I would have preferred that Canon announce groundbreaking news like “we have managed to eliminate jello from dslr footage”. That would have been groundbreaking newsworthy!
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I dont think Red brought a bazooka to a knife fight, they fronted an Apache gunship to a hot air balloon race.
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martin salter on 11.5.11 @ 7:23AM
For Red to put an EOS mount on the front was pure genius. If you already own a bunch of EOS lenses ( admittedly with their follow focus issues) you will be able to access a full RED set up for $15,000. Admittedly there is the back end data processing issues but computers are getting faster and cheaper by the minute. This is a camera to own and will see you throught the next 5 years of production ( at 4K if you choose or with 2K and decent slow motion) That’s $3,000 a year for a 4K camera? Love to hear what other think.
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pixel wiz on 11.5.11 @ 1:12PM
Lets not forget, with the RED if you need to raise some extra money you can always market yourself as having the highest quality photo studio in town as well lol. Since the RED shoots stills and 4k video you can get come interesting shots that would be hard for a traditional photographer.
You can shoot your movies and make some side income with the still function, especially with sports, marital arts, and dance. You can take a frame grab from the video and the give the person a ton of options on which shot they like.
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My background is in still photography with over 16 years of experience but I am trying to make a transition into the film world. Last year I had my first job as DP for the critically acclaimed award winning “Absentia” http://www.absentiamovie.com which I shot on the 5D2 using all my Canon L primes. I have the L zooms also but prefer to shoot with the primes just like everyone else.
I was lucky enough to get to go to the Scarlet announcement at RED Studios. I would of ordered the camera right there and then if I didn’t have a wife and kids. I am really hoping in 2012 as money starts to come in from “Absentia” being on NetFlix, Showtime, VOD, and in stores throughout the world I can make a professional camera purchase. Even though I love Canon, I love RED even more for how they continue to improve their products long after shipping and build their cameras with the idea of upgrades down the road.
I am really looking forward to seeing real world tests from both the C300 and Scarlet. But based on my thoughts on RED I am 99% when I make a big camera purchase it will be a RED.
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Neil on 11.5.11 @ 2:02PM
Has the smoke cleared yet?
Healthy debate about camera specs, RED vs Canon etc is all good but though I’m not surprised by EOSHDs response I am still disgusted by his accusations and his refusal to even edit out errors in his piece.
Koo, I don’t consider you an “aspiring filmmaker” – you’ve made a features+ worth of narrative content already with your (award winning no less!) web series. Well before your Kickstarter campaign for “Man Child” and even this site you were a filmmaker. Which is more than can be said for Andrew at EOS who still insists on shooting boring abstract views of buildings and bridges etc. and has the gall to charge people for his highly questionable anamorphic shooting guide when others offer advice for gratis.
That being said, as a supporter of “Man Child” I am confused by your decision to invest in a Scarlet and would appreciate some clarification. I was under the impression that you were the writer/director of the film not the DP as well. Are you going the Robert Rodriguez route and are going to try and do everything?
Now, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with this. However, why make an already difficult job that much harder? Why not just focus on being a great writer/director? There’s a reason these jobs are split on more ambitious films. On a short its fine. Everyone is learning and the expectation is not to make money with a short but to have a calling card. I’ve made shorts where I was writer/director/producer/DP/editor and it was a lot of work and I probably spread myself too thin creatively in some areas and hurt the end product. On other productions (those with a higher budget) I was extremely grateful to have others fill those roles so I could focus on doing the best job as a director.
You will only ever have one “First Feature”. It’s important that you line up the ducks and stack the deck as best you can. Maybe that means hiring a story consultant to ensure the script is as good as it can be. Maybe that means spending some $$$ on a great Casting Director that has access to top acting talent. Maybe that means investing on a Sales Agent to help get the film sold when its done.
You’ve demonstrated that you have great talent as a filmmaker and your generosity and openness to share your knowledge on this site also shows you to be a solid individual who is without ego and thats refreshing in this business. I have no doubt you’ll give “Man Child” every ounce of effort you have but am curious as to where you see your career going. Where do you want to be in 5yrs? Do you want to be a Writer-Director? A DP? An Editor? A Producer? All of the above?
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Not planning on DPing it myself! I hear your concerns and am writing a post about it right now. You’re on point with all of these thoughts, and thank you for supporting Man-child!
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Neil on 11.5.11 @ 2:40PM
Look forward to reading the post Koo.
I get the gear bug. I’m a geek who often has the “oooh! Shiny new thing!” condition. As a filmmaker its great that there are cheap tools available to play around with. I’ve been lucky enough to have worked with pretty much every camera system in the world from old 35mm Mitchell’s, Aaton, Arri, Panaflex, Movicam etc. from when I was a camera assistant. In the late 90s I shot several shorts on Mini-DV and now have a DSLR – they’re great for experimenting on and stretching those creative muscles. Better to get those hard lessons on axis and screen direction etc. in a no-budget scenario with a 1 to 5 person crew than on a $1000 a minute feature with 100+ people standing around rolling their eyes! :)
If I had the cash would I buy a Scarlet (or similar)? Sure. I’d also go on a vacation, eat at better restaurants, drive a better car and live somewhere nicer.
At the end of the day its about doing what you need to do to get ahead and, more importantly, continue to pursue your passion. Sacrifices need to be made but are still no guarantee of success thats for sure. I’m just grateful that after 15+ yrs I’m still making a living in film and have never had to get another job.
Keep up the good work Koo and don’t let the naysayers get to you.
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Look for any EPIC footage. Same body, same sensor, same dynamic range… lower frame rates and 4K instead of 5K at 24fps.
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skeptikal on 11.10.11 @ 6:22PM
Have a look at: “RED Epic verus Panasonic GH2″ http://vimeo.com/30751603
Image quality/resolution out of the GH2 looks better! Read Philip Coltart’s comments about what he thinks after using both cameras.
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george on 11.5.11 @ 4:52PM
Are you really surprised by aggressive posts when you post that you could care less about the two cameras this thread is about. Really?
Plus even if when the 5d mark iii comes out, which if it does will be in the far wake of the 1dx, and its actually in your price range, which I’m assuming is sub 5000, its specs as a dslr and not camcorder will not be able to compete with the video functionality and picture of a fs100 or af100 with a sub 5000 price tag, especially not if the 1d can’t at 7 grand.
People who can’t afford the new way of digital cinema cameras and who are clinging onto 5d’s for dear life have the habit of posting on threads that have absolutely nothing to do with them.
I think I understand you pretty good.
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moebius22 on 11.5.11 @ 6:35PM
Well George, not everyone needs a camcorder like an af110 or fs100 – my school already has af100s. You don’t even know what I’m shooting or using the camera for, yet you are jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about price points.
I also understand you as well. You somehow have such a chip on your shoulder, that you go on a rampage when someone doesn’t feel they have to purchase a certain piece of equipment. Somehow the equipment you work on is wrapped up in your ego.
I will post the words of of a DP Philip Bloom, “…one last thing…does all these cameras coming out mean you cannot shoot on your 60D, 5Dmkii, 7D, Gh2? NONSENSE…They are just tools. Expensive ones. Me? I shoot with the right camera for the right job and sometimes that may just be a $500 stills camera!! Trust me…owning one of these new cameras is not going to suddenly going to make your work better! Use what you have!!
Oh and by the way. I ordered a Scarlet.”
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George on 11.7.11 @ 9:04PM
“My school has a af100″ Classic. I didn’t know I was arguing with a film student. I feel foolish now. Good luck kid.
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That 2k@60 is a cropped spec, though. So less than 2/3″ fov. And at 50mb/s cap it’s going to look more like upscaled 720.
When Scarlet users see that anything below 4K is going to be pretty underwhelming it’ll be a weird day.
Then again, 4k at 30 wil look close to MX footage so.
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good post. Red overall won for indie filmmakers, but it is definitely not half the price. 1000 dollars for 64GB is pretty ridiculous, having shot with a company with red this adds up really fast. I think C300 will be popular with news companies though, they don’t want 4K or raw, they want reliability and the best 1080 video they can get…maybe some mobility too. Red wins but it’s not a landslide since the price will be the same, and the C300 will be better suited to some peoples’ needs
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George on 11.7.11 @ 8:58PM
You realize 50mb is a huge codec right? Don’t confuse megabits with megabytes
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Terry on 11.10.11 @ 3:21PM
Kholi – You do realize that the “cap” on the Scarlet is 55 MB/sec – not mbps; that’s megaBYTES, not megaBITS – roughly 8x more. Also – the Scarlet-X won’t look “close to” MX footage but the same as. They are exactly the same sensor – the ASICs in the Scarlet are just less capable of processing the signal, hence, the lower frame rates.
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Scott on 11.10.11 @ 4:30PM
just wanted to note that with the F3, you really need the upgrade to 4:4:4 to have a camera that is in the same ballpark as the other two. so a full blown package of the three cameras w/ EVF, LCD, battery, and charger is about $2160 (street) for the F3, $18715 for the Scarlet, and (list) $20,360 for the Canon, obviously significantly less once we know the street price. but basically all around the same price, give or take $1500.
just finished typing up a list comparing the specs of the three:
http://idisk.mac.com/ressler-Public/largeformathd10k.pdf -
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MARK GEORGEFF on 11.10.11 @ 11:39PM
If I was ready to go right now with my first feature since film school? I’d go with the SCARLET. After seeing the specs on that canon crap. Scarlet all the way. There also isn’t a damn thing wrong with doing it all, Koo. I’d prefer not to…but like Rodriguez always said — if you have the creative, artistic talent…it’s easier to learn the tech side. And the minute you start farming out work to others; and your crew grows and the costs along with it all…you end up with more problems. Unless you have the budget. Nolan did his first short film on weekends; over the course of many, many months. With a small crew and basically because he had no money. He went against the so called system. That movie led him to eventually get a indie project going called MEMENTO, which led to you know what. Do what you gotta do. looks like SCARLET is the way. Can’t wait to use it.
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Renaud on 11.11.11 @ 6:27AM
I don’t understand all this blabla and rage about those new cameras.
If we are all talking about feature films that are going to be shown in theaters, ONE shooting day including actors, crew, lighting, grip, production,… is usually more expensive than a Scarlet or a CS 300. If we are not talking about movie shown in a theater on a 4K projector, who give a shit about 4K, 2K or even HD.
So which serious production company would take the risk to plan a shoot with one camera? what if it breaks ? you are going to run to the shop to buy a new one? or ask everybody to come back tomorrow for free?
95% of movie are shot with rental equipment, NOT because they can’t afford to buy a RED or a ARRI, just because with rental if you have technical issues or if it’s broken, you give a phone call and you have another one ready in a few hours, also because you have insurance included in the price. Technology goes so fast nowadays that by the time you finish to edit your movie there will be another, camera out, etc….
Directors buying cameras for their feature movie? Is this a new trend? Don’t they have anything else to do than worry about the RED versus Canon “war”. What about their next movie are they 100% sure they will use the same equipment? What if their DP prefers the looks of the MX or the Alexa?
Yes, I know, not everybody get’s 30 million dollars budgets, but even with the smallest productions I worked for/with the director NEVER worried about what brand they were shooting with. They had shit loads of other stuff to worry about.
To all the tech experts, maybe after all the advices to Canon ( 45 billions $ revenue per year – 200 000 employees) you can also start giving advices to ARRI, after all the ALEXA only shoots 2K and it’s worth 80 000€. And don’t forget to have a go at Steven Soderbergh, he was shooting with an XL2 when he could buy an ARRI per day with the budget he had for ” Full Frontal”.
I’m not criticizing Koo for buying his camera, I just think it’s pretty unusual in the movie business and more importantly what he will shoot with, will only be a very very small technical ” detail” of the movie. I hope most people will love his movie for other reason than the fact it was shot with this or that.
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TTTulio on 11.11.11 @ 11:55AM
I am between the RED and something else, the C300 best feature seems to be the ND filter.
What is on with the Scarlet? why can’t we just use generic SSD drives that costs 1/6 of their SSD drives?
What is the audio connector?
Maybe I will have to settle for a FS100 after all.
If only Panasonic would do a C300 version of their GH2. ( that AF100 is thoughtless ) -
can you shot 4k and record to samurai recorder out of the scarlet hdsdi output if clients want pro res files for smaller jobs
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You should be able to… people are using the Sound Devices Pix for exactly this purpose.
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Having read so much discussion about your Red choice, Eoshd’s typically response whoring position, and the C300 vs Red debate, I simply wanted to offer my support.
For you, and not for everyone, the Red Scarlett makes absolute sense. Owning a camera of that quality, and features, something Fincher, Cameron, etc would use, for a measly $10 grand (even if it it comes nearer $20 grand after accessories) is a no brainer.
Even if you used kickstarter money, it would be wise, but you’re not, you’re for footing the bill from your own pocket. It’s really the only choice.
I am baffled by any negativity you receive. You are a filmmaker, and becoming a high profile one at that. When you planned to rent a Red, no one took issue.
Now you’ll have one, to learn, know inside out, and you will get better results from being able to test it, learn it, and be able to get the best from it, which will only make Manchild better.
I am not sure of the exact numbers, but I guess that buying a Scarlett will be less than hire price for a full shoot on Epic. Again, no brainer. This is your passion, it’s what you do, and why anyone would question you, is beyond me.
It’s less than a small car for pity’s sake. Do people have a go at you when you buy a new car?
Power to you Koo, you’ve done what most of us only talk about, and if I were you, I would have gone Red in a heart beat given Scarlett’s awesome 2011 rebirth. I wish I was you and about go start that journey, but I have some ways to go yet :-)
For full disclosure, I am a pro photographer who loves Canon stills, has lots of L glass and was gutted at the complete disappointment that was the C300. Well, the price and specs anyway. It’s a good camcorder in 2011, no more.
3 years I waited for it, defending Canon against the Nikon crowd, and then big mouth with money from sunglasses embarrassed my chosen platform, and not just by a small margin :-) Good on ya Jannard. Kudos!
60fps at 720? My Gh2 does that, as did my Ex 1, in 2007 when the world was a very different place.
Very poor Canon, very, very poor.
1080 at 60 fps and $10,000, low light to die for, ef support, and a killer sensor and we are talking something very usable, but $20,000, no raw and no 720p 60fps? Not going to happen in 2011. Who runs Canons market research for pity’s sake?
They think anyone will buy this? Fs 100 and adapter anyone?
The C300 has no audience. Hollywood need more, and are willing to pay for it. Indies need more in 2011 and Red now have them covered. Wedding photographers need more, and Sony have them covered with the FS100.
Prosumers can use the Gh2. Who needs a $20,000 C300? L glass is great, I have a lot of it, but it’s not parafocal it’s not cinema, etc, etc but for a $3 grand mk2, we can work around that. No worries.
For $20,000? Well, we might as well step up and stop worrying about the glass we’ve invested in, as we are in a whole new ball game.
Having spent 16 years in advertising (before photography) I can’t think of anyone who would buy the C300 if I was asked to produce advertising for it. Vincent and Philip will get one for free and rave. It is awesome. At $5-10 grand. I’d pre order now and rave.
But $20,000. Nope. it’s 3 years out of date. The world needed this a year after the mk2, not 3 years.
You waited for Nov 3rd and you went Red Koo. Of course. Who with a brain wouldn’t?
Really, what do we have in the C300? Xlr? 50 meg 4.2.2? That’s good, but not $20 grand good. Low light? Hopefully that is awesome, but really what is expected now, when you look at the wonderful Nikon D3s.
We wanted full frame 35mm to get the best from our L glass, crop modes for longer dof when needed, 1080 from the centre of the sensor for long zooms. We needed frame rates up to 120, all at 1080p, 60fps at a push. We needed intraframe 422, we needed 100 Meg GOP 422, and 300 mps 444 if our dreams were being listened to at Canon.
Digic 3v on a $20 grand cam? Are they insane when the $7 grand 1dx has twin Digic 5+ AND a digit 4 just for focus?
Bottom line? Canons video dept, need to have lunch with their stills dept once a week to avoid disasters like this :-)
I literally could not believe my eyes when I read the spec of the C300. Oh, dear. My beloved Canon. Oh how I envagalised you to death, then you do this to me? Oh, how we were in the old days when you had my back, and i had yours :-)
When I saw the C300 I wanted send Canon a copy of the dictionary with the definition of “historic” underlined :-) Canon don’t listen, maybe they never did. I am 100% sure of that now. I sensed that when I went to Gh 2 for video and saw the side by side mk2/gh2 tests I did for my modest projects. Wow, is that what 1080 SHOULD look like I thought. Kudos Panasonic.
I don’t have the need for Scarlett yet, but Red blew me away with it, and I am 110% sure you will not have buyers regret Koo.
Sure, I love Fincher on general principle, I think he’s a genius, but even so, the idea of having the chip he shot Social Network with (Oscar nominated), and Girl with… for under $10 grand? Blows me away.
Too long a post I know, apologies for that. 3 years of disappointment to get off my chest I’m afraid :-)
Pre ordered my now 3 year old mk2, and currently am looking at all the pretenders with jealous eyes (Nikon (lowlight stills), Sony, Panasonic video) and wondering how the best dslr video news Canon have in their ‘historic’ announcement is “we are working on an Eos Cinema thingy. No date. No specs, but trust us. You were stupid enough to wait three years before, why not a little longer now:-)” tell that to my clients.
2011? The iPhone doesn’t have moire and alaising, why does my expensive Canon dslr :-)