April 3, 2013

Canon 1D C 4K 25P Firmware May Be Released After NAB, 120FPS at 720P Also Coming?

If you've been itching to shoot a project on the Canon 1D C in 4K but you need 25fps, it looks like you'll have to wait just a bit longer. Canon officially announced that the firmware would be released in April, but it wasn't clear when exactly it would be coming. Now there is word that we'll get it after NAB, and an image has been released that shows it being tested on the camera with an additional frame rate we've never seen before. We have also been looking forward to the clean HDMI update on the Canon 5D Mark III, which at the moment is still scheduled for sometime this month. Click through for more on both cameras.

I was sent this image on Monday, but a lot of fake information comes through that day, so naturally I was skeptical at first, though this seems like the real deal (click for larger):

While I know there are plenty who will be looking for this in Europe since the TV frame rate is 25p, it's not likely going to persuade any more US owners or renters than it already has (unless, of course, they are shooting content for Europe). While I'm hoping this image is real, another frame rate caught my eye from the image above:

Obviously this would be a huge addition to the camera, and if the image is a fake, it's one of the better fakes I've seen (with a consistent noise pattern throughout). While 1280 x 720 at 120fps may not be coming in the next firmware, it looks like it's definitely being tested. The only Canon camera capable of 120fps is the $26K C500. While the 720p may not be the sharpest in the world, it could still prove exceptionally useful to have all of these frame rates in such a small package. It may be that we never get this frame rate option, but there is no question this is one heck of a sensor.

Some of you were mentioning that you were interested in seeing some tests with the new Canon 5D Mark III clean HDMI firmware, but it looks like we'll have to wait at least a few more days for that, possibly until after NAB. I haven't heard anything other than April as a release date, but it's likely that Canon will either show it off at NAB next week or just simply release it after the exhibits close. Many have remarked that the clean HDMI won't make a huge different in quality, but it will be helpful for color grading or for post-production where you want a more NLE-friendly codec like ProRes or DNxHD. You can certainly shoot green screen with the camera as-is, but 4:2:2 should be better for pulling keys.

We'll update you when Canon officially releases the firmware for both cameras.

Would the 1D C interest you more as a rental with 120fps? How many of you are anxious for the Mark III clean HDMI? How do you plan to utilize it for your productions?

Your Comment

38 Comments

I have the 5d3, and let's be honest, it's not a movie camera, even with the clean hdmi firmware.
We can make really beautiful video, but not movies, i mean, not "real movies"..
The firmware will allow more flexibility in post, but i don't think it will make a huge difference..
I'm waiting for the Blackmagic m43 (and maybe a S35 version introduced at NAB), and will sell my 5d3..
Do you think that a S35 version of the blackmagic will come this year? (maybe a bit more expensive than the m43 one), and a baby red (3k for 3K$) , do you think it is possible to see something like that at this NAB?

April 3, 2013

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NMendes

And the speedbooster will help a lot, so, i see no reason to stay with the 5d3..

April 3, 2013

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NMendes

If you're in the market for an S35 BMCC as a 5D3 user, I do think a compelling argument can be made that you would get most of what want from it in a C100.

For all the comment board Canon-bashing, a C100 Canon Log file is realistically a very significant step up from a 5D3 file.

April 3, 2013

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Carlos D

Step up from the 5D maybe, but it's nowhere near the quality you get from the RAW BMCC...and it's double the price.

April 3, 2013

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sean

That is not true, BMC has a severe aliasing problem, no serious feature would use the camera as is. I shot with it this weekend and would never use it on a paid gig or narrative, c100 is much more reliable, I'd rather have good looking 8 bit than fantastic aliasing.

April 3, 2013

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ryan

@NMendes i saw some great stuff from the bmcc recently havent heard of the aliasing problem. anyone have ideas about the digi Bolex?
720 at 120 is not really impressive tbh. i think canon drops the expectations and then when they give something kind of worthless people get excited. this shouldnt be a 'new addition" it should come standard but canon is too busy protecting price points to care. end rant
just my opinion guys.

April 3, 2013

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biagio

@Biagio, i agree with you, your comment was destined to Ryan i guess ;)
@Carlos, the c100? come on man, we are talking about an 8bits camera which record a 4:2:0 signal (H264) at 1080p, against a 12 bits raw camera, with 13 stops dynamic range at half the price..
Let's be serious, Canon cameras (5d3, 1dc, C100 etc) are made for "video makers", the bmcc is for "movies", it's not the same thing..
About the s35 bmcc at a bigger price, i agree, i don't think it will be announced this year..
But like i said before, the metabones speedbooster will come in june, so, we just have to be patient..

April 3, 2013

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NMendes

@nmendes youre right i meant the firs tpart was to you the second was to @ryan lol
check out my comments lower on the page it echoes your sentiments.

April 3, 2013

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biagio

@sean - "Step up from the 5D maybe, but it’s nowhere near the quality you get from the RAW BMCC…and it’s double the price."

I disagree with your implication. The C-line and the BMD cameras are two different animals entirely. I'm not even considering it at work for our new cameras, but the C-line is exactly what we need. Better form factor, 1080, not 2.5k raw, XLRs, built-in ND, etc. etc. The C100/300 is built to shoot out of the box, period. No, I can't get raw or anything beyond 8-bit, but I don't need it, or want it. 10-bit, admittedly, would be nice, but it's just not an everyday need, and I do a good bit of color work to all our material.

Whenever we do want RAW (I'm thinking, outdoor shoots), then yeah - we will rent the BMD. But for everyday work, the C-line is where I want our money to go.... depending on what happens next week, of course :)

April 3, 2013

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David S.

tiny portrait Canon 1D C, 4K out of camera, minor tweaks in Premiere Pro 6: https://vimeo.com/61088951

April 4, 2013

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Rafeeq: Great job on your touching portrait film. Thank you for a window to a place I would otherwise not have been exposed to. Saw it earlier on the Red User blog. There is alot of detail there, and even the little bits of trash clearly visible on the street seem to add to the sad emotion of a place that might have seen better days. A bigger camera that would require more lighting and add-on gear and crew probably would have made your subject less relaxed and your film would not have been the same...I want the 1DC but the massive file sizes are too much for me at this time. Hopefully that will change soon as Moore's Law takes it's course.

April 4, 2013

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Rob

I'll doubt we'll hear anything about an S35 BMCC. It'd be financial and PR suicide for them to announce it-even if they are working on one.

I really like the 1DC-and the rental rates are really reasonable-much better than Id expected given the price of the camera.

April 3, 2013

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Dave Mueller

no reason why someone else wouldn't announce one though?

I'd bet money on RED making good on their 3k for 3k just to one up them a bit

April 3, 2013

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Chris Lambert

They already did a 4k for 4k with the BT MX's...I'd doubt they will cater to the budget crowd any longer.

April 3, 2013

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john jeffreys

Someone should be utilizing CMOSIS S35 sensors with global shutter, well except for Apertus.

April 3, 2013

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Natt

@ Chris, a baby red would be great, but look at their price, an ssd card + a monitor will coast the price of the "3k at 3k$", so, it just can't exist (i hope to be wrong)..
Their scarlet was popular in the indie market and is being killed by the bmcc so, maybe they will announce something, i don't know, let's talk about that after the NAB next week ;)

April 3, 2013

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NMendes

Totally agree and those prices certainly make me ponder the wisdom of that prediction. But if they don't someone else will, GoPro maybe?

Perhaps in some super basic expandable package? 1080 redraw to standard ssd 3k to red drives? That's sort of along the lines of what I was thinking, would sort of go along with their methodology of eventually as well...

Just hope no one calls me on the bet lol

April 3, 2013

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Chris Lambert

It's still 4:2:2. And 120fps at 720P? Cool, is this the year 2011 again?

April 3, 2013

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Isaac

You'd be surprised how much 720x120fps you've already seen if you've watched a few of the current hit TV shows.
Its also often used on the GoPro3s - for national commercials.
720 is looked down on here (fair enough), but if the graphic is true, this camera will be even more popular.
I agree with Dave Mueller - the rental rates on this camera are terrific considering. Less than $500 for a 3 day week in most cases. Let's say you're a DSLR shooter wanting to do an indie feature over 3 weeks. That's maybe $2k to shoot in decent 4K, using all the peripherals and lenses you already own, and a GUI and FOV you're intimately familiar with.

April 3, 2013

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marklondon

I can rent a BMCC for 210/weekend (plus another 500-100 for ssd's, docks, rigging stuff) and it shoots RAW 12bit. For an indie feature (like mine, for example, which we only have a 3k budget for the whole thing), it makes a lot more sense.

April 3, 2013

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john jeffreys

Rental rates around Sydney are a bit steep in comparison. Something like $1,400 per week. For a three-week shoot, might make more sense to buy brand-new and offload on eBay afterwards.

April 3, 2013

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exactly!

April 3, 2013

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biagio

dynamic range > resolution.

April 3, 2013

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biagio

Exactly. This cameras dynamic-range is not so great - I rented it a few weeks ago with a friend, I found it's dynamic-range a tiny bit better than the dynamic-range coming out of our 60D. And it's 8bit. Even if it could do 1000FPS, 8bit is so hard to go back to once you've worked with 10bit/12bit.

April 3, 2013

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Voltaire

cant agree with you more. dlsr LOOKS like dslr. idc about the res if you cant give more stops. it just looks like cleaner dslr

April 3, 2013

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biagio

Precisely. And at this price, I'd rather invest in an FS700 and Convergent Design's new Odyssey7 :

http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Odyssey7.aspx#Video-Introducti...

Supposedly they worked with Sony on this to create an affordable 4K RAW acquisition solution for FS700 owners/users.

As for Canon, I think they need to get their head out of their ass. Drop their prices as well as their arrogance. Even from a stills perspective, Nikon's $700 D5200 is out performing the 5DMK3 by two-stops in dynamic-range. Not to mention that the D5200 absolutely murders the 5DMK3 in video resolution too.

April 3, 2013

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Voltaire

Betters the 5D Mark III in video resolution, sure. But "murdered" is hyperbole, especially if the Mark III footage has been sharpened. Perhaps we could say the D5200 murders the Mark III from a cost-to-performance video perspective, though that would still be dependent on one's chosen workflows.

Improved sensor performance, color sampling, codecs, etc. aren't going to show up in a new Canon DSLR until at least the 7D Mark II, and perhaps not even then. I'd find that pill easier to swallow if Canon was a bit more creative with its firmware. Cameras are a combination of hardware and software, and though the hardware might be stuck in a rut, the software could be used for a modular system. Others - Sony, for example - have already chosen this path. The price jump from a 5D Mark III to a C1000 is fairly substantial-- big enough to deter a lot of people. But if Canon included the 1DC's Super 35mm crop in a 1DX/ 5D Mark III firmware patch, I bet people would be willing to pay for it, even if Canon were to charge something characteristically extravagant, say $1000. This would push budget buyers who were considering the 6D upstream, and it shouldn't upset the C100 sales since the C100 has ergonomic advantages and a number of features aimed at professionals. The 1D-C would still be fairly insulated because it offers 4K, 1080p at 60fps, more color profiles, etc. I don't begrudge Canon for wanting to differentiate its products--but I'd really like to see them catch up with the rest of the electronics world in terms of upgrade paths and software. We're not yet to the point that camera hardware is a commodity in the way that computer hardware is, but we're getting closer. The fact that camera like BMC are getting attention with off-the-shelf industrial sensors speaks to this point. PC-makers are really struggling now, and a company like Canon could find itself with a similarly unfavorable outlook if it holds back forever. Just as outside technologies - smartphones, tablets, etc. - uses commoditized equipment (sensors, etc) to eat into PC market share, so too could some new player emerge to shake up Canon's complacency.

April 3, 2013

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Mike

I shoot on RED and i love it. i am onboard with them and i was a canon kid for a long time but at some point i realized the company (canon) does not have the loyalty to its customers in any real way. time after time we see them come out with something which shouldve been in the previous model and now has been stuffed into a smaller, cheaper one. i cant abide that sort of behavior and, although i still use my 5d markII, im moving forward with RED. a company which, only in MY OPINION, listens to its customers and offers competent and logical answers. 720 would be fine with higher DR but as is Canons 1080 looks muddy (blown highlight detail, light blobs) which leads me to yawn when they offers up 120 frames at 720. canon could stand to get stronger in soooo many BASIC components in there camera i hardly think frame rates (which they add and subtract in their specs for solely price protection purposes) is enough to make up for their other deficiencies.

April 3, 2013

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biagio

Im sorry but sharpening 5d3in video looks good on small monitors. Watch a wide shot of treed and hill landscapes on a big screen. Its sharp but detail is not there

April 3, 2013

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vinceGortho

Every test I've seen puts the D5200 on the same level as the Mark III in terms of resolution.

April 3, 2013

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

fs700....

April 3, 2013

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Chris

yes.

April 3, 2013

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Luke

FS700 120fps is only in 10 second bursts and at a sightly reduced resolution. It's 1080p on paper but the Super Slow modes on the FS are significantly less sharp than the 1080 mode. ISO performance is also heavily compromised on the slow-mo modes, anything above native sees tons of noise. We use the FS700 almost daily and honestly wish the super slow modes weren't so finnicky and weirdly implemented.

If the 1DC gets a 720/120 mode and it actually lets you record for a continuous period of time, there are a lot of reasons I would consider using it over the FS700 1080 version.

April 3, 2013

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Carlos D

@Carlos D
have you ever tried to capture the 120/240fps footage with external recorder or Retina MacBook Pro? Any recorder (and Interface) able to capture 1080p/60fps, like Gemini 444 or BlackMagicDesign's UltraStudio 3D, you can record uncompressed 8bit 422 120/240fps footage and it looks MUCH BETTER than internal 120/240fps. It's still 8bit but absolutely beautiful.

I know Gemini444 is too much but combination of the BMD UltraStudio 3D and Retina MBP you can do so many other thing with them so it's worth to spend for true 1080p super slomo!

April 4, 2013

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@Joe Marine - I dunno, Joe. We threw some D5200 and 5DMK3 footage up on a Dell UltraSharp U3014 the other day. D5200 looks much sharper out of the box. We also tested GH3 - which I feel had the best resolution (and dynamic-range) of all three. The D5200 really did out perform the 5DMK3, by quite a bit, in resolution, only beaten by the GH3. The GH3 lost out in ISO to both cameras though. I found the GH3's noise/grain structure to be the most pleasant of all three. It still shoots pretty clean at 1600ISO. The D5200 was virtually noise free at 1600ISO, with a bit of noise at 3200ISO. I really feel the D5200 is a phenomenal camera for it's price - much better value than a 5DMK3 I think. Especially when coupled with the Nikkor 35mm F1.8G and Nikkor 50mm F1.8G, which can both be found for about $200 each.

April 3, 2013

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Voltaire

Why don't you throw that footage out to the internet because all the samples show pretty much that the D5200 has worse resolution than the 5dmkIII? Let us see the difference, if it's there or if it's just sharpening.

April 4, 2013

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Yeah, the 120fps interests me more than 25fps and it doesn't bother me that it's 720p... you could conceivably intercut 4K and 720p if your frame rate was also cutting from 24fps to 120fps - it's long be known that when the frame rate is that high, the resolution can drop quite a bit, as it's almost like you're getting the same amount of information via different means.

I remember years ago seeing a very high fps footage shot at lower than SD and it seemed very high resolution - it was a in a sense, but the resolution was instead coming through the inundation of frames like through a faucet burst in many places.

I'll try intercutting both if this comes...

Had my 1DC since mid January and currently 1 week into an 8 week shoot of a feature. It's delivering. The 4K is only the beginning. It's such an innocuous camera. We can do anything. Nobody stops us, even with the 24mm. I just look like a tourist photography a friend.

April 8, 2013

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Haradsj

This in'sghtis just the way to kick life into this debate.

March 18, 2014

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