August 13, 2013

First RAW Footage From D16 Shows That Digital Bolex Means Business

It's been quite a journey for the Digital Bolex team. There have been plenty of bumps along the way, and plenty of haters who said the Digital Bolex would never come to fruition. Well folks, we've finally got the first RAW 24fps footage from the prototype of the D16, and it's clear that the finalized version of the Digital Bolex nearing its completion. Check out the original footage (and several graded variations) below:

First, here's a video that shows the original ungraded footage alongside several graded variations of each shot. The grading was done in FilmConvert:

And here's another quick grade:

Of course, it's difficult to judge the merits of this camera based on 6 seconds of footage and a few basic grades,  but you can head over to the Digital Bolex site and download the RAW CinemaDNG files to judge for yourself. Having played around with a few of the stills myself, I have to say that I'm really impressed with the overall sharpness of the image and how much information can be pulled from the blacks.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the sensor (and therefore the final image of the D16) is still being calibrated by the team at Ienso Electronics in order to maximize the dynamic range and limit the noise. Therefore we can expect the final version of the camera to have a cleaner output and a bit more DR than what we can see in these early camera tests.

As the week goes on, we should begin to see more RAW footage from the Digital Bolex, as well as more graded variations, so keep your eyes peeled. And depending how the rest of the D16 camera tests go, it's entirely possible that we'll have some idea of the manufacturing schedule and shipping dates for the original pre-orders from the Kickstarter campaign.

What do you guys think of the first footage from the Digital Bolex? If you've created your own grades of the footage, post the links in the comments!

Link: 144 Frames of Grade-A, RAW Motion! -- Digital Bolex

Your Comment

100 Comments

The amount of criticism that's been lobbed at this camera (and its development team) has been ridiculous with a lot of people not even talking about the camera's capabilities. Playing around with the footage was pretty fun and definitely more than I had expected. Can't wait to see more.

August 13, 2013

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Coty

Joe and Elle took a lot of flak over both the camera (vapourware) and also personally (naïve hipsters), and everyone seemed to be talking only Blackmagic. Well, here's a little magic spell from the Bolex team. The footage looks very good to me. Congrats to the team who, considering the 100+ design improvements, worked at lightening speed to achieve this.

August 13, 2013

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Saied

I still simply cannot see how this has any chance of succeeding against the $1995 BMCC, not to mention the $995 pocket cam. Unless the faithful hipsters are willing to pay $10k per unit, the economies of scale just arent there for the Bolex.

Its a case of too little waaaaaaaay too late.

August 13, 2013

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Paul

Be sure Blackmagic's pocket cam doesn't just burn a hole in your pocket instead (!) - how is the RAW option going lately ? I realise I am trolling now, but I feel it also rebalances things a little. Go, hipsters go !

August 13, 2013

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Saied

An actor on set said to me recently "a hipster is only someone like you and me that you haven't made friends with yet".

Touché!

I think this camera looks like loads of fun but I can understand the lack of trust from people when they said that they were producing images from their prototype which was just a different camera with the same sensor. People have invested in this project based on trust so I can see why that was a poblem for some people. I personally am not one of those people but you'd have to be pretty short sighted to see that it was an issue for some.

On the topic, this footage is awesome :)

August 13, 2013

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Kraig.

How exactly does it look like loads of fun, when technically no one in the wild has never used a functioning camera.

I really do hope this camera proves to not be vapor ware , but i still feel the same way like ive alwayz have until they give a reason not to think other wise, 6 seconds of footage does not cut it.

6 seconds of footage does not add up to the theory of the statment , i mean i understand them stating that they are tweaking the sensor for less noise and better picture, but if you can record 6 seconds of footage, why can they not record 10-15 mins of footage, again all suspect stuff.

August 13, 2013

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jay clout

wait until tonight.

August 14, 2013

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How's your camera project coming along? When are you shipping?

August 13, 2013

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Bob

Oh, shut up. Consumers are allowed to comment against suppliers who don't deliver, even if these consumers don't have a similar product to sell.

August 13, 2013

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FabDex

Now, now. No need to get all pissy. It's a camera, not your girlfriend or whatever floats your boat.

August 13, 2013

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Bob

If you can't look at the specs of the BMCC and the D16 beyond buzz works like 'raw' and '2k' and understand the many important differences, then you're not qualified to use the camera, and not their target market.

August 13, 2013

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Mark

But I think Paul has a good point that's irregardless of specs or even performance: Black Magic has established themselves as the leader in that sub-$3K camera market and delivered, basically, a paradigm shift.

Another manufacturer promising basically the same thing-only different-is going to have a hard time gaining market share. I hate to be negative, but why would someone go through another year of firmware updates and shipping delays with a new company when they can get a (finally) matured product?

August 14, 2013

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Dave Mueller

I get your point.
I think that the D16 is different enough, though.
True raw (Pocket: will BMD ever manage to add it?), CCD sensor, high quality onboard audio, out-of-the-box usability, interchangeable lens mount, internal HD+CF slots, internal 3-4 hours battery, weather sealing, etc.
Plus the Digital Bolex team are doing their best for the first generation cameras to be bug-free and mature enough.

August 15, 2013

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pask

FilmConvert is DigiBolex's friend.

August 13, 2013

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Natt

Yea! This sample is what we all have been waiting for... or is it?

August 13, 2013

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Raul

The problem with this camera isn't the quality of it, nor the makers. It's that it has taken them too long to release it. One of the guys form the RC podcast mentioned how the biggest problem with the kickstarter projects is that they are so focused in making the best product possible they forget to ship it. They forget they need to make a version 2.0. Say what you will about Canon and their lack of innovation on the DSLRs at times, but they ship their cameras. Independent camera makers tend to focus way too much in making the perfect camera, hype it to death and then when they deliver something great, they just get underwhelmed responses and get defensive. THE BMCC 4K better be a ridiculously great camera or else people will just pounce it to death, no matter the cost.

Now, I know my arguments aren't logical, as yes we should be glad we are fortunate to be living in a time where there is so much option out there to shoot with, but let's not forget logic and emotion are too completely different things. People want an emotion when they get a camera. I think that's what keeps so many stuck on film. It's the feeling it evokes in them. So when you associate the camera you are making with angst, frustration over the wait for it to ship, well, you are setting yourself up for failure.

I commend anyone making a camera out there, but I'd hope they would be smart enough to just ship it.

August 13, 2013

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Well said.

August 13, 2013

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Conner Stirling

Ernanio:
Could you please elaborate a bit on two things in your post:
-Why would it be a good thing for us customers if they "forget" a version 2.0, and provide everything in 1.x (as they plan to do, discussing firmware improvements, an external SDI/codec unit and upgrades to the sensor)?
-Which independent film makers with underwhelming responses after hyping their product have you been referring to?

August 13, 2013

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Thyl Engelhardt

That should read "independent camera makers" ;-)

August 13, 2013

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Thyl Engelhardt

To answer your first question:

They won't be able to havea perfect version 1.0 camera, nobody did! It's just unattainable. From a business point, it's good to have something to improve, it's good to have a generation 2 product. Nobody is going to be buying one camera for a long time.

To answer your second question:

RED, BMC. Easy. Red Dragon is getting alot people questioning it's DR even though what they showed is quite impressive. But even I can see how easy it is to knock them down a notch. They hype it death, showed a 20 stops DR chart, then downplayed it to 18, and now it's barely 16, etc etc. Ok yes it's not the final blah blah, but imagine if this had been what they had first shown, without hype, without frustration over teh wait, during NAB 2013, just imagine this TOIA footage released circa NAB 2013, it simply would had killed everyone. Seriously, imagine the TOIA footage screening outside that booth upgrading cameras, and with a hot chick taking orders for the upgrade or for new cameras....just imagine.

BMC is generating alot of ill will towards their 4K Cinema Camera, and it's purely related to their delays, they made a ludicrous promise after having made people go through waits that to this day happens with their original product. As much as I like their specs and image, I don't see myself ever buying that camera, it's not even on my radar as great as it may be.

All this...just my opinion.

August 14, 2013

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Thanks for the additional insights!

August 14, 2013

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Thyl Engelhardt

Make the extra effort to know what the journey has been in making this camera and you would understand the decisions behind the release timing.
The Bolex team has decided to avoid what they call "the first generation blues" = using early adopters as beta testers and if I were a Kickstarter backer, I'd be happy they did so.
The D16 is weather sealed, built like a tank, has high quality preamps and converters, is well balanced and has a pistol grip, has a global shutter, interchangeable lens mounts, an integrated follow-focus, a 3-4 hours internal battery, an internal HD that records about an hour, etc. so it's a very different beast than the cute Pocket.
I think the potential user base overlaps a bit, but just a bit.

August 13, 2013

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pask

Good post. I love what thay are doing with this camera. I have a Scarlet, but it's clear this is a really well thought out camera for micro budget Indie film makers.

August 14, 2013

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"I’d hope they would be smart enough to just ship it." —you say that like it's so easy to do.

August 14, 2013

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John

Gotta say, love the image, love the form factor, love the interchangeable lens system. Only thing is, price tag. There's no way they're going to sell one of these over a BMCC. There just isn't.

August 13, 2013

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I understand the BM would require a certain amount of add-ons to be fully functional. Maybe that might redress the cost balance ? Also, no rolling shutter - might that be a factor in purchase ?

August 13, 2013

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Saied

Apparently, they have literally hundreds of emails from people asking when they can get one (or a dozen), from film schools to independent filmmakers. So "no way to sell one" is not quite correct.

August 13, 2013

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Thyl Engelhardt

"dozens".
I think they'll sell, but I hope to hell their business model works on low initial numbers.

August 13, 2013

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marklondon

Now it makes sense why BM dropped the 2.5k cinema camera by a grand. They may need to drop it a little more...seriously though, what I like most about the DB team is they seem obsessed delivering a not only a highly functional camera but a great image as well. Hey, It looks pretty good to me. That speaks volumes in today's market where new cameras just miss the mark in one area or another. Looks like a well rounded tool (forget especially for the money) its definitely hitting where others seem to be missing. Go DB!

August 13, 2013

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Anthony Marino

The D16 is of no threat to the Blackmagic, because unlike the Bolex, the Blackmagic is already shipping.

Very unlikely that many people will switch from Blackmagic to Digital Bolex. Blackmagic lowered the price of the original cinema camera to better align it with the pricing of their other cameras. You've got 1080p for $1k, 2.5k for $2k, 4k for $4k. The only real threat to Blackmagic is Blackmagic.

August 13, 2013

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Jake

They are their own worst enemy. In posting 6 seconds of footage they're treating their target market i.e. us like idiots. As my grandmother once said "Either pee or get off the pan".

August 13, 2013

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Ed

If you checked the actual post, it says we'll be releasing more footage this week. This is just a teaser...

August 13, 2013

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Elle

Really hard to not look like a hater with this kind of advance footage.
1 second clips, cmon?

August 13, 2013

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Premini

Check today's blog post and make sure you have 10GB free on your hard drive :-)

August 15, 2013

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pask

Form factor + CCD makes it different enough from the BMCC to be worthy of consideration.

August 13, 2013

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Justin Brunson

I'm really not sure why everyone is so hard on this team. They're making 100 cameras for 100 people. They were a kickstarter funded project. You will probably never own one, even if they continue production. This is not something to be compared to blackmagic or canon or whatever, this is a small team of extremely smart people who are building a camera. The mere fact that it can be compared to blackmagic AT ALL is amazing. It's a great little camera they are putting together, and as a community we should be PROUD of them. They're like us! They wanted a camera with specific stuff, so they MADE ONE. That's endearing and inspirational.

And cut the shit with this hipster nonsense, it's a meaningless word at this point. Get over their choice in eyewear.

August 13, 2013

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alex

Agreed. I sense that many independent film-makers consider the more commercial film industry as some sort of exclusive club, yet some have exhibited the same attitude towards the Bolex project. It's like "How dare these hipsters build a camera !". Regarding "hipsters", I do find it kinda funny that Elle's face is effectively now becoming a de facto test calibration card for DNG. My hunch is that it's only a matter of time before an established director or cinematographer picks up this camera and shoots something: I think BM are watching this camera closely.

August 13, 2013

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Saied

agreed!

August 13, 2013

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terry_mickie

Is it Joe's hat that make all those people talk about hipster-ism?
OK - the cam is strongly influenced by the original 60s Bolex designs, so what?
Do the anti-hipsters really need an ugly sensor box to be happy? What's wrong with a beautifully and smartly designed product?

August 13, 2013

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pask

You're all completely neglecting the main reason that phrase "hipster" has been associated with the Digital Bolex: the word itself is a direct descendant of the word "slacker," only upgraded with social subsidy for an elite creative class, and fashion tolerations that are ironic for the socio-economic strata meant to be portrayed.

Put another way, "hipster" is well-paired with the word "spoiled," manifest in that instinct to crowd-fund the realization of a personal dream, then treat the enterprise like a gift to the world instead of our age-old tradition of working for a living -- sweat equity.

If the Digital Bolex team had behaved like workers in a large corporation, daily sweating for the objective to earn a paycheck that buys them happiness OFF-HOURS, you would have seen this product finished a year ago, and outdated by now in lieu of a version 2.0 in response to Blackmagic Design. As it is, when the Digital Bolex comes to market, they will be competing with Blackmagic one year ago.

August 13, 2013

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So, if I understand you correctly, Paul: it's "elitist" and "spoiled" to make a product that we as filmmakers felt was missing in the market of products created by your esteemed "large corporations", for whom we should "daily sweat" for a paycheck that causes us to only be happy "OFF-HOURS" and not in the work we're doing--because working on "personal dream" projects (like, I don't know, FILMS?) doesn't count for "sweat equity" or as "the age-old tradition of working for a living"? I think you're in the wrong industry, Paul.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to the dark side...

August 13, 2013

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Elle

No anger, no fear, just clarifying terminology and surveying this specific niche marketplace that is raw technology, not social activism. If you're successful, that's grand. But historically, innovations of import have not been a walk in the park. Occasionally that someone "living the dream" and "expressing themself" through the design and construction of technical tools for a toolkit will slip through the cracks and make it big. Here, I'm simply assessing the Digital Bolex venture to have dim prospects in those clothes, given the year's extraordinary advances led largely by Blackmagic. It's a global economic democracy. And so, there's this enormous borderless majority -- especially in the East -- who view innovation as classical labor, under the threat of losing out to competition (and not getting paid). Those people aren't miserable from that; just laying the groundwork for personal satisfaction after they clock out from work every day. By analogy, dinner tastes great after a long, sweaty hike in the mountains.

If there is a problematic "hipster" these days, it is the person who doesn't have their nose to the grind for at least a solid 8-hour day, and frankly goofs around for half of it (or more). Large corporations aren't enemies of the people -- they are institutions that help keep people busy and productive, even during the down time in one part of an endeavor (like, waiting for the camera sensor to arrive from a third-party supplier). And, these folks always happen to make the best stuff. You use these things all day long. Think about it.

August 13, 2013

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Paul

How much of the DBolex team do you actually know to express such a judgement?
I'm wondering what Joe would think of such words in the light of all his tiny nights of sleep...

August 13, 2013

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pask

The etymology of "hipster" was interesting. Everything else? Not so much.

The hipster derision of the Bolex duo seems to be based solely on their personal style. The style has been adopted by so many slackers over the years that it appears to many to merely be an affectation - the uniform of the psuedo-artiste. These people, however, appear to be putting in the work and not just talking the talk.

I understand people being frustrated with the delays and non-representative "examples" from the camera, but I still say give them a chance to deliver. The kind of effort and care going into this is far superior to the jaded, deliberately crippled market stratification of the corporate manufacturers you are championing.

As for the rest of your socio-economic diatribe... whatever. I could have sworn this was a filmmaking blog.

August 14, 2013

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Great hipster impersonation, Daniel. Your sighing disinterest and paranoia about organized business is uber-cool.

August 14, 2013

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Paul

I would love to debate you on the merits of corporatism... Just not on someone's filmmaking blog. Based on your comments, however, I doubt you'd be interested in arguing the specific points I would make. So, in closing, let's look at the recent history of how inherent corporate protectionism and market neglect has actually spawned independent entrepenuerism within the filmmaking community.

Canon DID respond to requests from one of their markets (professional photojournalists) when they enabled *crippled* HD video capture on the 5D MkII & 7D. By including the 24p framerate they accidentally spurred a revolution in low-budget cinematography. The market for such features, in conjunction with the versatility of interchangeable lenses, had existed for years but had gone unserved at this price point. It could be argued that advances in technology were necessary before this nascent market could be served, but as I'm sure you're aware the technology already HAD existed for years; corporate R&D is always years ahead of actual implementation in order to protect artificial product lifecycles.

In fact, consumer hacks of Canon and Panasonic's existing technology revealed that the big corporations aren't content merely delaying their improved tech; they also deliberately disable features within current releases in order to necessitate the additional expense of their product offerings higher up the food chain. This practice is purposefully exclusionary and entirely callous.

Boutique businesses that served the independent filmmaking community certainly had existed prior (Videonics, Camtree, BorisFX, Red Giant, etc.), but in response to Canon's blunder such businesses began to flourish. From hardware like budget camera rigs and audio preamp mixers to software that reduced noise, simulated film grain or synced audio, the new market was suddenly littered with enablers. Conversely, corporate stalwarts like Apple practically sat the revolution out, conspicuously withholding their big-iron offerings and bungling their flagship editing application so badly that even lifelong Apple devotees were forced into the arms of the competition.

How did Canon acknowledge this obvious development of transcendent importance? By releasing a series of cameras imbued with better tech, of course! They even tipped their hats, specifically marketing the cameras to the "cinema" community... at a $20,000 premium. Then, when they finally updated the cameras that had started the revolution with some autofocus tweaks and filters to eliminate moire (an issue that had already been addressed years prior by an independent entrepenuer) they increased the price of those cameras by $1000. Thanks, Canon!

Such corporate arrogance and dismissiveness led directly to the development of the BMCC and Digital Bolex. These smaller, boutique manufacturers recognized not only the underserved market but also the blatant availability of off-the-shelf tech that merely had to be cobbled together and tweaked in order to serve that market at a fair price (when's the last time you saw a major manufacturer bundle anything but Lite versions of professional software with their $3,000 cameras? They can't even manage to eliminate Radio Shack audio jacks at those prices). As a non-professional I will gladly suffer delivery delays and potentially spotty customer service (like the corporate outsourced customer service is any better) in exchange for deeply discounted hardware that is capable of putting professional-quality footage within my grasp. And I think you should be asking yourself how much faster and further the societies of the world would have developed had this corporate protectionism not been so prevalent.

August 14, 2013

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It is nice video. I like how the camera looks too.

The impression left be the Red Dragon 6K is affecting how I see video now. I am still wowed. So I think if I hadn't seen that last week this video would look even better.

August 13, 2013

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Gene

The original file is WAY underexposed, which is clearly hurting the final grade. The shadows are really blocked up. It will be interesting to see what can be achived with a proper exposure. IMO they should have not posted something until they've nailed it. It does show however that you can pull a somewhat useable image out of the toilet.

August 13, 2013

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Have you tried to recover details in the shadows yourself or is it just a blind statement?

August 13, 2013

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pask

It is a statement on what I am observing in the clips presented here. I would hardly call that blind. I don't need to play with the raw files to see that they are underexposed as presented here and I have never seen an example from ANY camera where the image doesn't suffer when underexposed, especially in the shadows. I will bet my last dollar that if these clips had been exposed one to two stops brighter the image would be drastically improved. That is a blind statement made on experience alone.

August 14, 2013

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OK - thanks for the explanation.
In this particular case, Joe under-exposed on purpose, knowing that a lot of the shadows detail can be recovered in post.

August 14, 2013

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pask

Underexposing on purpose to show what details can be pulled from the shadows is a great test, but initially should never come before trying to get the best image possible through a proper overall exposure, especially for the first release of clips. They need to play catch-up very fast and putting out something less than optimum does not help their cause IMO.

August 14, 2013

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They are still tuning the sensor and making decisions on where the middle grey should be, etc. so it's not yet written in stone and are even talking about making it user-definable.
That is another great aspect about this project: the openess of the process and the opportunity to infuse ideas.
I can't think of another camera manufacturer that would listen to it's future user base as much and as well.

August 15, 2013

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pask

According to Red Shark's "inside industry sources", about twenty different 4K camera will be released between now and the NAB 2014. Considering that NAB is scheduled for April, it's twenty cams over the next eight months
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I hope NFS can handle the traffic (and adopt a more comprehensive forum style in the near future).

August 13, 2013

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DLD

The redesign is finally under way! Lots of new features including a ton of community stuff...

August 13, 2013

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avatar
Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Thank you for the update Koo, very intrigue on what will be the benefits for the usual readers, although sharing location of older articles with casual visitors has been rather painful. keep up the good work on the info and good luck.

August 13, 2013

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Agni Ortiz

That would be right. However, you won't see many at the $3-5k level until 2015, in time for the 2016 Olympics.

August 13, 2013

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marklondon

I expect the low tier of the new releases to be the faux 4K cams - in reality, more like the 2.5K BMCC clones with the footage undergoing an up-res to 4K with the attached software. Considering that BMCC is retailing for $1,995, the new models should fall in the same range, depending on the feature set such as focus peaking, zebras, etc.
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The next step up would be models that record 2.5K (or 1080p at a very high bit rate/ ProRes) internally and the down sampled 4K to an outboard recorder a la FS 700. Red Shark has an interview with the Atomos founder&CEO that strongly hints that the outboard recorders will have a major role to play in the upcoming 4K deluge.
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The high end/pro models with the internal (compressed) 4K recording would probably have to be larger in size for now (either in the camcorder format from Sony and Panasonic or the large DSLR similar to 1 DX/C or D4 bodies) due to the anticipated heat build up. These high end - $12K-$15k models should have a Raw output capability.
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Anything up from that (in the $20K-$25K price) should have the full feature set of F-55/Red Epic, if not quite the same quality.

August 13, 2013

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DLD

I mostly agree with that, (completely re RED/ARRI variants at the F5/55 price level) but there is great work being done on the heat issue in smaller form factors.
Bear in mind what the DSLR market wants: a great stills cam that also shoots video. Only very rare photogs are shooting no video at all now. In that hyper-competitive area, delivering an $8k 4K capable (decently compressed) DSLR would be right for 2015. And don't rule out the P+S market - the Nikon V1 can do 24 frames of UHD now - that's 2009 tech in there.
Finally don't rule out decent optics and 4K sensors in phones. The new Sony 'lens-cam' is the opening shot in that war.

I do think you'll see a TON of 2.5k cams, because the sensors are now coming right down in price. If a 'DigiBolex' style startup began today, they'd probably need about 50k of r+D less thanks to recent off the shelf development.

August 13, 2013

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marklondon

I ignored smartphones because they seemed to be a tad outside of the current discussion. (though, if you're a Chicago Sun Times management, any photo cam will do). FWIW, I did bring up the recently announced Omni 4K sensor (made specifically for smartphones) on another thread/post. Obviously, within a couple of years, smartphones will also be 4K capable.
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Generally speaking, what we might see shortly is the lineup similar to the already released products - 1 D C, C500, FS 700, F5 - but at much lower price points, arguably ~ 50% off the current levels within the next 8-12 months (I think the CES 2014 will have a major camcorder push).
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To steal a line from the internet, a digital camera is a computer with a lens attached to it and, if you believe in Moore's Law, then the current product cycle will see a bunch of tremendous products at a substantially lower levels than only a year ago. (you can thank the destruction of the point&shoot market as well ... the excess capacity of the manufacturing plants is probably around 30 million units annually)

August 13, 2013

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DLD

That Nikon V1 is an interesting little camera. Nikon should just take the technology of the V1 and make an affordable 4K camcorder out of it, with not just HDMI out, but an SDI out, and Thunderbolt out. I'd be in line to buy one. I like the Nikon color palette.

The Red Dragon is going to force every camera maker to go for at least 4k.

August 13, 2013

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Gene

Nikon V1 can do 4K 60fps bursts for 0.5 seconds, and 4K 30fps bursts for 1.0 seconds.

Nice sample of 4K 30fps bursts (needs a little color grading): http://vimeo.com/61441075

You can find it on the internet for about $300.00 w/lens.

August 14, 2013

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Gene

Speaking of the 2016 Olympics makes me wonder if NHK in Japan is planning on having 8K tv up and running by 2016 in order to be ready for the Olympics. Tv ratings are high for the Olympics.

August 13, 2013

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Gene

The next year's World Cup is a more popular sporting event globally but that will be the 4K push in cameras and TV's. 8K is further away.
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For the CCD fans, new Aaton footage has been released. The image is superb, IMO, and the company has supposedly found a new backer/investor. Still, it's very hard for the European manufacturers to go for anything but the very high end, as their pricing is not competitive in the low-middle segment of the market.
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PS. Red Shark has their hands on the BMD Pocket Cam but was refusing to post any footage the last time I checked there (last night/early this morning US).

August 13, 2013

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DLD

I'll add you're going to see a lot more S16, and possibly S8 size sensors.

August 13, 2013

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marklondon

It won't surprise me to see a bunch of 4k cameras but also I don't really see the market yet. Sure with 4k it's nice to have the extra resolution but I'd prefer better dynamic range and at least 10 bit to work with. If these 4k cameras don't have 13+ stops of DR and at least a 10 bit codec I think it we'll be a sign that things are going in the wrong direction. It's pretty hard to see the difference between between 2k and 4k for the average consumer. Dynamic range and a bad codec on the other hand is pretty easy to see for anyone.

August 13, 2013

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I should also add slow motion to my list of things (along with good dynamic range and 10+ bit codec (above comment) that I want to see before 20 new 4k cameras are announced.

August 13, 2013

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You may be unhappy then.

August 13, 2013

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marklondon

I think you're right, marklondon. Resolution is king. Higher K's is trumping everything.

I really am looking for breakthroughs in 16K. I'm trying to imagine what a memory card for 16K video would look like. There's going to have to be some method of rendering 16K created, else it will take days. Maybe high speed, large, external TB hard drives will be needed. Maybe even some kind of RAM array running into TB's will have to be made.

But BTW, greater DR is a natural result of higher K's. So camera purist of the world, SMILE. :-) Allow yourselves to SMILE. :-)

August 13, 2013

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Gene

Actually increased dynamic range is not an automatic result of increased resolution. It has a lot more to do with codec and compression as well as pixel sensitivity, etc. This is why the Arri Alexa has a slightly better DR than the Red Epic-MX.

August 14, 2013

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Kenneth Merrill

You're not smiling, Kenneth...

August 15, 2013

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Haha, thanks for the reminder Daniel :) im actually really happy about the direction things are going (think ill get a BMPCC whenever they start shipping in bulk! And I can't wait to try the dragon sensor)

just trying to educate the newcomers a little bit at a time.

August 15, 2013

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Kenneth Merrill

Agreed. I'd like to see a 60-100fps standard on the majority of $5000 and below 2k cameras... with 10 or 12-bit 200mb/s codec options before we move on to 4k. Of course, from Canon and Sony's point of view... I'm sure they would love nothing more than to maintain the consumer/professional hierarchy... and would rather implement terrible low-res "4K" 8-bit 4:2:0 in DSLRs and other prosumer products before offering a professional-level, cinema-grade, 2k option. They're most likely going to skip right over it... from garbage-consumer-grade 8-bit 1080p... to garbage-consumer-grade 8-bit 4k.

August 17, 2013

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bwhitz

IMHO the footage does not look that great to me. I'm not trying to bash anyone or take sides. From the footage that I have seen , this does not hold up to its competitors. But thats also does not go without saying , that someone will make some incredible films with these cameras. Shoot with whatever you can get your hands on.

August 13, 2013

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Rob Thomas

I'm interested in what they're doing (although it's not the camera for me), but releasing an under exposed 6-second clip and an out of focus 1-second clip don't inspire much confidence.

Perhaps rather than technical shortcomings this is an example of them showing the stages of development, progress that most camera companies don't show because they're not flattering. Since this was crowd funded, it might make sense to them to keep the process open and show people how their investment is coming along. Possibly?

Time will tell, and I don't have a horse in that race, but there's a lot missing at this point. If I had invested in this I would be worried. That said, I still hope they deliver - it would be gratifying to see.

August 13, 2013

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Colin

They have been very open to show the process to anyone anyways. Joe is replying personally on the forum on a daily basis (or almost) and they have a 1-hour Q&A live stream to answer questions twice a month.

August 15, 2013

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pask

I notice a lot of horizontal banding in the mid-tones, most obviously in the hair. Here's a screen grab:
http://colinfrangos.com/hair-banding.jpg
And blown up 200%:
http://colinfrangos.com/hair-banding-200percent.jpg

This may be a temporary thing, I don't know and wouldn't draw any big conclusions from it. But it's very pronounced in some areas.

August 13, 2013

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Colin

Just letting you know: the BMDPCs are starting to land: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/pho/3996863581.html

August 13, 2013

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marklondon

Man I hate those guys. $1300! Tickle Me Elmo anyone? ha!

August 13, 2013

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I was surprised at how small the markup was! Only about $150 over shipping and CA sales tax. I note Em at cheesycam has had notification that his is on the way. They're definitely beginning to land!

August 13, 2013

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marklondon

The gouge isn't going to last like the BMCC. This one is landing as you said! Man I want to get my hands on one.

August 13, 2013

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Same here! I think I'm a way back in the queue. I have my PL and Nikon converter mounts waiting. I literally can't wait to try the Optimo Rouge zooms on these things (no, I don't own those!).

August 14, 2013

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marklondon

I want the D Bolex team to give me details on how they are going to support the product they sell. C'mon hipsters: tell us exactly how you plan on dealing with technical problems ?

August 13, 2013

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FabDex

Looks more filmic and better out of the camera than the BMCC or the BMPCC to my eye!

August 13, 2013

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Jerome (also..b...

Well, you're entitled to your opinion... but I think it's a crazy one. BM's footage looks quite close to the Alexa and better than Red MX, IMO. It looks like clean, modern, digital cinema. This footage looks like a video camera. Blackmagic has had many years of experience dealing with color and processing (i.e. Davinci Resolve)... they understand the science. DB's fotage looks... well... old. In the worst possible way. If I had to describe it... it looks like RAW HD footage from the 80's. Brown blacks... green midtones... crappy balance on everything I've seen so far. Bad motion. The image is just competitive from what I've seen so far.

August 17, 2013

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bwhitz

Almost a year and a half after they solicited and received funds -- they have delivered six seconds of footage that people can download.

That's it. That is all that is relevant. EVERYTHING ELSE discussed in this comment section is pure nonsense.

August 13, 2013

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DREWnetwork

In my view, if their first camera does just what they are aiming at , would be an incredible accomplishment . Even if the USA market moves to another product, they will find plenty of customers world wide.

August 15, 2013

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Agni Ortiz

I hope Elle and Joe end up producing more cameras, so those, like me, who like CCD sensors :D, can get some. The fact that two filmmakers/cinema lovers could join efforts and create a camera that produce a great look, even in small quantity is amazing. This kind of endeavor plus, not their case, the open source culture (initially in software, but with good example in hardware, starting from the openness of Ephel camera´s kit -i have one and shot a short with it a couple of years ago) are examples of the good side digital technology can bring to humans -of course there is bad sides too, and a lot.

about paul words, " Large corporations aren’t enemies of the people — they are institutions that help keep people busy and productive, even during the down time in one part of an endeavor (like, waiting for the camera sensor to arrive from a third-party supplier)."

i suggest him to go watch this documentary, corporations most of the time act like psychopaths, unfortunately, from Cargill and Monsanto destruction of soil to coca-cola using underpaid children in factories in south america, to some pharmaceutical companies testing illegally drugs in Africa, to Nestle trying to transform water in a expensive product, even contaminating natural reserves in Minas Gerais, in Brazil, to realize their ideal that water should not be free, or almost free.

So for me it´s fucked up to dismiss the efforts of those under the digital bolex team based on the fact that "corporations are a good thing per se". ;)
http://www.thecorporation.com/

And I think all those who back the project knew their were getting into a very experimental project that MAYBE would lack the comfort, like possible technical support, that is normal with big companies. But the thing is, it´s the FIRST effort in this direction. If they open up their project, more advances can be made by others, or also contribution to their future projects.

from this perspective, Joe and Elle deserve LOVE not hate. :)

August 13, 2013

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guto novo

Agree

August 14, 2013

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Anthony Marino

I agree. Negativity towards independent ventures is not different than negativity towards independent filmmakers. On a note about Nestle, they pay around $3 for each million liters of Ontario's underground water and sell it for $2 million. They turn a profit just, for that quantity, of +15 billion %. In British Columbia is not regulated, so they pay NOTHING !!, just pump, fill the bottles, and sell it. How many Digital Bolex-Like teams can they fund?

August 15, 2013

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Agni Ortiz

Slightly off topic, I've been following this camera and the BMCC but I am totally ignorant when it comes to lenses and lens compatibility. Can someone suggest a good primer on how lenses work, what the differences are with the varying mounts, pros and cons etc. With all the add ons some of these cameras need (SSD's, lenses, mounts and handles) it feels like the retail price is really not overly important. You need to think about all the required add ons. I want to avoid buying lenses that turn out to be useless if I upgrade my camera in a few years if possible. Is there a wiki or explain it like I'm five post about all of this?

August 14, 2013

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Billy C

There is a list of compatible lenses somewhere to be found in the EOSHD forum

August 14, 2013

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Thanks but I meant more of a primer about understanding lenses, the mounts, why primes are better etc...
Why some lenses work with some cameras as I understand some vignette in some situations. Something for people who have only ever used fix lens video cameras. An idiots guide as it were.

August 14, 2013

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Billy C

Take a look at the NFS DSLR Cinematography guide available on this site - it's a decent primer on some of the things you mentioned.

August 14, 2013

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There are sure a lot of rash statements being made about a camera that hasn't even been handled yet.

I don't think the battle is between BMCC vs DB. It's more like DB vs DB - can they deliver a usable product? BMCC has and is (despite delays).

I think it would be wise for people to calm down and stop choosing sides until they can actually make a logical real world decision on which camera they want to buy for themselves.

August 14, 2013

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Agreed. Or heaven forbid, not "Choose sides" at all.

August 14, 2013

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Of course, congrats to a team for putting out a camera like they said they would. It's hard to follow through on any project, even more so a first time giant thing like this.

That said, to be real- looking at these and the initial images... there's something about the noise that feels really, really digital/ugly to me. If this were just another digital camera, I wouldn't feel the need to point that out. But since the whole idea is sortof built around the nostalgic film vibe, I think this is a major problem that needs to be addressed. The noise needs to look more "organic." Not sure how Alexa does it, or if it's even possible without changing the way the actual sensor works. But it does look to my eye like the BMCC noise is prettier than this too...

August 14, 2013

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Well, some allege that the secret sauce in Alexa is its use of a low pass filter. I speculate that there's a lot more to it to the point where one might need a degree in electrical engineering to fully understand what went into making their sensor and the subsequent video processing.

August 14, 2013

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DLD

Still doesn't look that great footage wise.

August 14, 2013

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LELAND

It's not a deal. It's not better than a BMC pocket, even, a ML Raw. Next?

December 9, 2013

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Javier Mollo