March 27, 2014

ARRI Developing a 6K 65mm Digital Cinema Camera?

While the 6K market may start to get crowded over the next few years, what's so special about that resolution? As an acquisition format, 6K gives you all sorts of options for better-looking 4K with the ability to reframe and stabilize. That's why it comes as no surprise that ARRI looks to be developing their own 6K camera, but instead of squeezing those pixels onto a Super 35mm sensor like the RED DRAGON or the new Kinefinity 6K cameras are, the company is letting them breathe on a gigantic 65mm sensor.

While this has to be classified as a rumor, the sources confirming the existence of the camera are as legitimate as they come (and if they are just joking, some confirmation would be fantastic). It looks to be in testing right now on Tarzan, and another feature I can't quite decipher (maybe you guys can help):

First things first, this would not be the first medium format-sized digital cinema camera, as Vision Research used to produce the the Phantom 65 4K camera with a sensor size of 52.1 mm x 30.5 mm, which is nearly twice the size of RED's huge 6K DRAGON sensor (30.7mm x 15.8mm). This camera, if it does see the light of day, would likely be very, very expensive, and would probably not be released right away even if it was announced at NAB. ARRI themselves is also no stranger to image-making at this size, as they most recently produced the ARRI 765 65mm film camera:

And if you still think this is far-fetched, Panavision has been working on a 70mm/65mm digital cinema camera (which we haven't really heard much about recently):

We may see some new lenses if ARRI does produce a 65mm digital camera, though I think the lenses Panavision was talking about releasing with their new camera would also be a stellar option. In addition, there are rumors that ARRI is developing a separate 4K camera with a Super 35mm sensor. If you're jumping into 4K in the ARRI world, that makes much more sense as a starting point, especially since going all the way up to medium format sensors introduces its own headaches -- like trying to keep focus at lower T stops. The data rates of an uncompressed RAW 6K camera would also be tremendous, coming in somewhere around 650MB per second at 24fps and 12-bit (multiple terabytes per hour).

Since ARRI is committed to offering the best image quality possible, it's unlikely these would produce anything less than beautiful images. 6K-7K on a full-frame or Vista Vision sensor is near the threshold of current technology in terms of maximum image quality, so going to a larger sensor as you increase the Ks makes a lot of sense. A 6K 65mm cinema camera from ARRI would probably only be used on the biggest productions for a long time because of the costs involved, so I would see a 4K Super 35mm sensor being a better contender as their everyday camera to replace the ALEXA -- which is going to take some time either way.

Unfortunately, until ARRI announces anything, we can't confirm the 6K or 4K cameras, but with added pressure from Sony and RED, it is really only a matter of time before we start seeing sensors this big with this kind of resolution. Since they haven't released or announced anything, details can still change, but there is no question NAB 2014 is going to be interesting.

For those who are in the know, what have you heard?

Links:

[via OFFHOLLYWOOD Twitter]

Your Comment

98 Comments

$2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.00

:)

Body only

March 27, 2014 at 5:25PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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XML

I laughed

March 27, 2014 at 6:41PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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david

I did too. XD

March 27, 2014 at 7:41PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Tiedtke

I smiled, its prob true

March 27, 2014 at 10:33PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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brian merlen

I cried :(

March 29, 2014 at 10:29AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Some movie makers would pay. Snob appeal goes a long way with people that have large amounts of money.

March 29, 2014 at 12:16AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

The entertainment industry is very interested in any technology that will separated them from indy productions. iMAX, 48fps, 3D, etc. HD is easy now, any amateur film maker can produce a stunning HD movie with enough talent and know how. 4K is getting there and there isn't even any real way to view it in the home yet. To produce a feature film 6K uncompressed will only be a reality for large studios for quite some time. I'm excited to see some of the footage this camera can capture.

March 27, 2014 at 5:28PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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CC

But for what? It's hard enough to distinguish 4K from 2K. It's getting far beyond the point of diminishing returns with 6K and 65mm. At what point are we going to say "enough"? 12K? 24K? The human eye is only able to distinguish so much detail. At some point, people are going to have to quit the arms race and start focusing on telling better stories.

March 28, 2014 at 12:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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4k looks very different from 2k.

March 28, 2014 at 12:11AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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VinceGortho

I've seen first hand 2k, 4k, and even 8k. Let me tell you something. Beyond 4k the difference in resolution is not apparent UNLESS you have a very large immersive screen. I am referring to IMAX sized real estate.

Nobody will be able to see the resolution difference of 6k to 4k in a home viewing environment.

March 28, 2014 at 12:42AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Michael

It always is a mistake to underestimate peoples perceptions.

March 29, 2014 at 12:17AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

I get what you're saying but why would a camera development company focus on telling better stories? They make the image capture tool, they've been working with film for a very long time and as Walky Pfister pointed out, IMAX film is somewhere around the 8-12k range in comparable resolution. So a camera company, that's been involved with film for most of there business life, when moving to digital quite obviously is going to keep pushing they're own technology to its limit.

I really don't get people's annoyance at a camera manufacturer, they make cameras, they don't tell stories or make films, directors, writers, editors, cinematographer, sound operators and actors make films. The camera is a piece of technology, a camera company is a pioneer of that technology. Be happy that they are pushing that technology forward.

March 28, 2014 at 7:23AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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It's not so much about the resolution, but the sensor size. 70mm is visually very unique - have a look at the Master as an example. In terms of resolution 6k looks exceptionally sharp at 4k.

March 29, 2014 at 6:06PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Sloaah

I'm with you Derik. Things have been way too focused on technology and NOT on storytelling for too long now. I'm all for having good tools, but if filmmakers spent 50% more of their time actually writing better stories or finding better scripts and good actors to act in them, it would change film making forever. As it is, we have all this "bigger-is-better" technology and some of the best looking, yet WORST films ever made. Story? Who cares about story when it looks sexy?

April 4, 2014 at 1:01PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Drew

Will be fascinating to see what ARRI and Panavision do next to push digital forward. Resolution far less interesting than native ISO and dynamic range, it's that organic celluloid feel and colour rendition which ARRI got so right on the Alexa and I can't wait to see how they better themselves.

March 27, 2014 at 5:31PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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And that's why you get a larger sized sensor (HDR) and a higher pixel sub-sampling for 4:4:4 (color).

March 27, 2014 at 5:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Not that I am in the know or anything but there have been a slew of rumors in the photo world about new medium format cameras in the "affordable" range beside Pentax 645. Hasselblad is already using a medium format sensor from Sony and now Sony itself is rumored to bring out a substantially lower priced alternative. Canon was rumored to have another MF unit as well.
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Sony's MF sensor has 50 MP, so 6K would likely be a downsampled image a la 4K off the 20 MP sensor of F65. In terms of data, new enterprise SSD's from Samsung can haul in 3 GB/s, so the data coming off these sensors can also be wrangled. Anyhow, I've long thought that move into larger sensors would be the next evolutionary step before 8K arrives.
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Now, where are all 2.5/2.8 MP cameras that I predicted?

March 27, 2014 at 5:33PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

I seem to remember somewhere a Arri exec at some point saying it is impossible to get the quality of an Alexa on a super35 sensor at 4k, that the pixel size becomes so small that they can't collect enough light to be to their standards. From that perspective, the only option is a larger sensor for higher Ks. This 65mm sensor makes perfect sense. I look forward to seeing the next generation of digital cinema image quality.

March 27, 2014 at 5:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Interesting to me from a "camera porn" viewpoint. I know someone can go and shoot great things with a GH3 and 4, but presumably a format/framerate has to settle somewhere, in the way film was stable for a century.
I can see this negatively impacting archive material, regardless of artistic quality - some of my favourite stuff is on interlaced video.

March 27, 2014 at 6:32PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Saied

The target is 8K (which, at ~ 33 MP's, can also be sub-sampled off a 50 MP sensor, although undoubtedly there's be large sensors with higher pixel counts), 120 fps and 14-16 stops of dynamic range. NHK has already trialed such a system in Japan. There are some software companies that claim to deliver 20 stops. The higher the native ISO and frame rates go, the easier it is to deliver it by simply bracketing multiple exposures.

March 27, 2014 at 7:13PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

I see vector based codecs becoming standard as a delivery format within the next ten to fifteen years. Resolution will eventually go back to meaning how good the image looks as opposed to how many pixels compose the image. But I'm an optimist, so I could be completely wrong.

March 27, 2014 at 7:56PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Coty

The field of view on 65mm will look amazing too! Anyone who has shot stills on medium format will know how good it looks compared to 35mm

March 27, 2014 at 6:40PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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matt

I have been excited about the notion of shooting medium format digital for a while. Quite excited to see some more info/image from this bad boy. No doubt it will be amazing.

March 27, 2014 at 6:55PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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I wouldn't take Michael N Sutton too seriously to tell you the truth. the reason being that I still remember when he started the rumour on Twitter that the 10.1 version of FCPX was going to be a complete change, complete reboot of the FCPX. Paradigm shifting is the term he used if I remember correctly. He said that he had insider info but he was wrong both about the date of release, and about the features. 10.1 was almost exactly the same as previous versions. What he did get then is a lot of followers, but he lost some credibility... You win some you lose some.

March 27, 2014 at 8:04PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Jeff G

if this happens ENTIRE ARRI ZEISS lens goes to trash :) even Ultra Primes not compatible with 6K sensor.

March 27, 2014 at 8:55PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Kemalettin

Wait. Just so I have this straight.

You're saying that if one camera comes out with a larger than full frame sensor suddenly some of the best lenses in the world are now "trash"?

March 27, 2014 at 9:40PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Read Dragon lens coverage thread on Reduser.Master Primes cleaner after 25mm Cooke S4i is after 40mm...
Dragon sensor is almost half of the 65mm :) so you gonna use only 100mm 135mm 150mm on entire Zeiss Master Prime Line?
They r gonna create or adopt old medium format Hassy lenses for this camera (if happens) like they did back on Dark Knight movies.Dan Sasaki modded photo lenses for 65mm Imax camera..

March 27, 2014 at 10:17PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Kemalettin

The article clearly states that they are going to be creating a new line of lenses for the camera. Very few lens lines will cover a 65mm sensor. That part I understand, I just don't think the rest of the Zeiss line will become "trash"...

March 27, 2014 at 10:34PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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If they become trash, i hope they will throw it at me and i will catch it :D.

March 28, 2014 at 12:40PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Eric

I've seen people going through trash bins. Please tell me where this lens trash bin is? I'll get myself a shopping cart. ;0)

March 29, 2014 at 10:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Enjoying some G...

Kemelitttan has a point though. As far as I am aware only Panavision has a set of actual cine 65mm lenses, beyond that I think the Star Trek 2, and The Master all went to Hassalblad for their 65mm work.

It'll be interesting to see what lens combos come up in the next few years as this camera rolls out.

March 27, 2014 at 10:32PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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No...don't encourage him. He might have a point but his first statement did no favors in making it. Will the current Zeiss line be incompatible with the camera? Maybe. Trash? Um, no.

March 27, 2014 at 10:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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im looking from my point of view.im gonna get the lens set now i would get only leica summicron or summilix for Red Epic Dragon.And i know its not enough and sensors gonna get bigger in next 5 years.18mm and 25mm gonna vignette on next Red sensor too..What then? Sell Leicas and get the new ones?

March 28, 2014 at 12:10AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Kemalettin

And, when the medium format takes off in the "best of" category, there may not be just one "medium". For example, Phase One P65+ sensor is 2,178 mm sq. Hasselblad's 2,159. Leaf 2,016. Pentax's 645 1,452. Leica's 1,350. Standard 65 mm film 1208. So, assuming that these big boys want to keep some of these lenses proprietary and thus charge premium over market, it might be a real free-for-all until things settle down.

March 28, 2014 at 1:00AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Even so, people will still shoot s35 or 35mm. As of now there are only 2 digital cinema cameras over full frame. The Zeiss line of lenses will never be trash. They will just need to make new ones. Just because the RED Dragon is out doesn't mean the MX is "trash".

March 28, 2014 at 1:40AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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I'm with Luke on this. To suggest the lenses are trash is to suggest that any camera that doesn't have a crazy big sensor is trash. If a 65mm sensor camera is released it doesn't mean you HAVE to use the damn thing.

March 29, 2014 at 10:34AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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If the current lineup of lenses will not cover the larger size sensor, then they cannot be used. That's the point he was making.

March 30, 2014 at 1:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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James

Doesn't Hassleblad get its lenses made by Zeiss anyway?

March 28, 2014 at 1:28AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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IAn

I don't think Hasselblad makes V series lenses anymore. Those lenses were Zeiss, all manual focus with aperture rings.

Hasselblad makes still lenses for the H series. All autofocus and no aperture rings. They are proprietary lenses for their H series cameras. Very hi quality but limited in use. Wish RED made a Hasselblad H lens mount. Maybe soon?

March 28, 2014 at 6:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Charlie

I mean that the H series lenses have no adapters so they can't be used in other systems. H series are Fuji made and are extremely sharp.

March 28, 2014 at 6:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Charlie

March 29, 2014 at 9:16AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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I bet the body alone will cost more then a Phantom Flex 4K kit.

March 27, 2014 at 9:51PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Jeff

Why not make 100k...

March 27, 2014 at 10:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Eduardo M

Petaflops.

March 27, 2014 at 10:22PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Anthony Marino

I remember seeing Lawrence of Arabia in 1962 projected from a 65mm print in a Boston theater freshly equipped with the projector. The image on screen was incredible. I recently saw Captain Philips projected from a 4K DCP file in New London's Garde on their brand new digital projector. The image on screen was incredible. Up close you see the screen's fabric texture, not the pixels. The sound was even better than the image. Hopefully, by the end of June, 4K home systems from Vizio will deliver the same experience to our living rooms. For affordable 6K capture gear, let's hope Kinefinity demos their Kinemax 6K during April's NAB show and we learn they now have US distribution. To get great 2k, shoot 4k. To get great 4k, shoot 6k.

March 27, 2014 at 10:26PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Frank

It's surprising to go back and see just how many movies back then used 65mm. Glad we are getting there with digital because it's a format I would gladly move to.

March 27, 2014 at 10:38PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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65mm was the old roadshow format. Even movies as recent as Robocop 2, Indiana Jones 3, and Batman Returns all used 65mm for their blue screen/miniature/matte shots. It was the standard for visual effects so that as the images were comped and moved to second and third generation, the image was still as sharp as the rest of the picture (shot on 35mm).

March 27, 2014 at 11:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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And VistaVision for FX, which essentially is 65mm run horizontally...

March 28, 2014 at 1:55AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Vista

VistaVision is 35mm run horizontally...IMAX is 65mm run horizontally. But yeah VistaVision was used a ton for VFX for the same reason (it was even used for miniature shots in The Dark Knight Rises).

March 28, 2014 at 4:12AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gabe

Yes, Vista Vision uses 35mm stock, but when you run it horizontally the frame size is essentially equivalent to a vertical 65mm frame.

March 29, 2014 at 8:13PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Vista

Unless you saw dailies of Lawrence, you saw it in 70mm. 65mm is the camera negative...and with the soundtrack added, it becomes 70mm during the release.

April 6, 2014 at 12:37AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Daniel Mimura

6K Workflow = Data Storage Nightmare

March 27, 2014 at 11:52PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DK

6K raw strains a 4T drive, so many 4T drives are needed. Kinefinity licenses the Cineform codec, so good compression is in place, reducing the number of 4T drives needed. New chips from Marvel provide 10 Ghz over copper twisted pair so connection speeds to a data store are good. The tech needed for 6K post is here now and will get faster and cheaper. What is really interesting, and still a bit of a mystery, is the 3K 'golden' pixel feature from Kinefinity; up-rez to 4K, down-rez to 2K. While we wait, we can rent the Canon C300 and capture picture with plain, old, boring 2K.

March 28, 2014 at 12:32AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Frank

Must have some magic c300 this can do 2k....

March 28, 2014 at 1:21AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Leloo

Some people consider 1080p to be 2k since it rounds up.

March 28, 2014 at 9:32AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Coty

6K is double of 4K and 4K really doesn't seem to be much of a problem in workflow ... or, at least, not in the high pro end of Arri 6K.
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Anyhow, B&H has a number of the medium format cameras listed. Hasselblad has a 40 MP, a 50 MP (Sony?) and a 60 Mp sensors. Mamiya has one with 80 MP. Leica has one with 37.5 MK but it's a little smaller than others. Pentax has a 40MP. All are CCD's too, most by Dalsa. Phase One, who owns a part of Mamiya, has just come out with a CMOS APS sensor.

March 28, 2014 at 12:49AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Rendering CG and compositing at 4k still is a problem for visual effects houses. They primarily work at 2k, which a few 4k shots sprinkled in. I'm not even sure if anyone has done vfx @ 4k for an entire movie that consisted of hundreds of shots. At delivery time a big summer block buster at 2k will tax even the biggest facilities to the breaking point (been there, done that)

March 28, 2014 at 2:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Vista

Catching Fire was delivered in 4K, but one shot had to be rendered at 2K because render times went through the roof in 4K. So, yeah, 4K is starting to happen for the big VFX movies, but it's a slow process.

March 28, 2014 at 6:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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ThijmenDeValk

The FX or the entire movie? The trend is to do DI at 4k, but the vast majority of FX are still done at 2k and then scaled up to 4k. Even a company like WETA, with a render farm the size of a small country, would have difficulty doing all shots for a movie at 4k. It's not just the rendering, but compositing a shot that is several hundred layers deep at 4k is challenging, even in something like NUKE. It gets worse with directors like Jackson insisting on stereo and 48fps.

Considering how poorly the studios handle post production on most summer blockbusters, doing all FX at 4k would be suicide. But I give it 2-4 years. We're going to need a lot faster workstations.

March 29, 2014 at 8:24PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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FX

The thing is about resolutions that size... Rendering in 4k (not even mentioning doubling the renders for 3d) is pretty nuts. Sure Computers are getting faster but the work that is needed to add the amount of detail is not feasable for most productions.

However good VFX ppl have very smart tricks and shortcuts. That being said some are pretty simple. Often in production renders are outputted at "noisy" sample rates and denoised and in case of high resolutions upscaled with special software (a.k.a. smart algoritms. Not AE denoiser!)

August 26, 2014 at 5:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Jerry

They should try the lenses Pentax made for their 6x7 film camera. I have a set and they produce some of the creamiest images I've ever seen. One of the things I miss most about shooting on film was shooting on my 67's. These lenses and those for the Pentax 645's are sharp as razors and produce beautiful imagery.

Maybe I'll buy a 6K Alexa just so I can use my lenses on it. Ha!

March 28, 2014 at 1:32AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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I have been warning you. All I can say is - wait til you see the pictures.

March 28, 2014 at 1:35AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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marklondon

I'm honestly really excited to see some footage from this.

March 28, 2014 at 1:42AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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And we are all expecting to have our mind blown :-) Very exciting. Would love to do all my work on medium format. However, price aside, the file handling alone would make it totally incompatible with my kind of work, which often involves filming for a month in the middle of the wild.

March 28, 2014 at 8:42AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Haroun Souirji

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-more-tidbits-on-the-medium-format-son...

An ongoing discussion of a potential Sony dMF camera on Sony Alpha Rumors (Sony's sensor is CMOS, btw).

March 28, 2014 at 1:54AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Skipped most of the comments but putting the 6K aside, the larger sensor does afford the ability to create a different feeling of shot more similar to a medium format photograph. That possibility intrigues me.

March 28, 2014 at 2:24AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Hmm, very interesting but lets see focus pullers try to pull sarpness with digital 65mm on industrys (yet) standar wide open stops..

March 28, 2014 at 3:04AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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So in 5 years we'll see 6k consumer cameras and ARRI developing a 10K, correct?

March 28, 2014 at 8:53AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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You might see a consumer 6K camera a year from now ... of course, it'll still be at 100 Mbps.

March 28, 2014 at 9:27AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

...don't worry about your lenses. Did you remember Metabones?! I am sure, there will be an adapter for 65mm so that you can use your lenses ;)

March 28, 2014 at 9:24AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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N. Jokic

It'll need the opposite of the focal reducer such Metabones.

March 28, 2014 at 9:40AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

As long as we're on the new cams being unveiled at the NAB - here's some more info the Panasonic Varicam.

http://panasonicprovideo.tumblr.com/post/80965679215/varicam-modularity

March 28, 2014 at 9:46AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Lets be realistic ... if this happens, which it sounds like its has, then of course Arri or someone else is gonna roll out compatible cine lenses

March 28, 2014 at 11:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Fox Mulder

6K

Go ahead, lick the screen

Beyond resolution wars and what FVX artists can use there there is a very different look between all sensor and film plane sizes. Super 35 looks different than full frame full frame which looks very different than medium and large format. Large format prints for instance are so clear that they feel in some cases startlingly life-like inside of a distinct look that is different than life. Its not that you notice some higher resolution, but it does becomes so clear that you feel you can almost reach into it. The flatness of field is different, the distortion is different, depth of field, everything. Its not just resolution. Not to mention that 6K spread out over a full 65mm sensor may result in larger pixels which are capable of holding more latitude and sensitivity.

March 28, 2014 at 5:37PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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tjdp01

Believe me, nobody in VFX is pining for 6k. We're still dreading the full arrival of 4k. The great irony is that more often than not we have to soften the CG rendered at 2k, because it's still too sharp to be integrated in most shots.

Interestingly you never hear someone like Roger Deakins or other other high end DOP clamoring for more resolution. They are already trying to soften everything from the Alexa to the Sony and Red footage, be it via diffusion, old lenses, soft light or simply blurring in the DI. But what they all want is more dynamic range.

I meet a lot of people in his business and the big cheerleaders for more mega pixels are usually marketing people, who need the next big thing to move units and tech nerds / spec sheet jockeys. There are of course exceptions but on a whole I think the companies are listening to the wrong people.

March 29, 2014 at 8:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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FX

It stands to reason that ARRI had to go 6K to compete with Red's 6K Red Dragon. Funny thing is Red is probably working on 8K.

March 29, 2014 at 12:21AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

Competing with people like Jim Jannard is not for the faint of heart.

March 29, 2014 at 12:33AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

^ ultimate Red fanboy

March 29, 2014 at 11:41AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Richard

Please tell me of the enormously successful and world famous companies you have started and run for years that allows you to look down at and judge what would be the lesser success Jim Jannard has reached in comparison to you.

Your comment says everything about you and nothing about me, Red, Jim Jannard, and all people that say great things about Red---and yes, WHAT A GREAT CAMERA!! :-)

You are trolling---and in such an expected, usual, uncreative manner. You reached out into your creativity so far to come up with the word "fanboy". Sorry for you, your day must be moving along so boringly. May so much more exciting things come your way today, say, maybe you could roll over in bed and look at the other wall for a few hours.

March 29, 2014 at 4:26PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

I would not brag much about the Dragon. In real-life tests, Sony F55 4K has more resolution and cleaner image than 6K Dragon. Especially with shadows. Sony also has a lot wider color gamut.

Only "test" where Dragon did well against the F55, is the one done by Red forum moderator. Even after the seasoned Sony camera professionals explained him clearly that he had fucked up, test is still up, with clear false results. But what else you would except from Red owner / advocate...

When it comes to Arri, well, if there indeed is 65mm 6K sensor, it will blow the Red Dragon to tiny, tiny pieces. Image will be stunning out of the box.

March 29, 2014 at 5:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Juhan-i

I'm bragging? Odd. I am pointing out that ARRI is doing this because Red is forcing their hand. Try to relax. Not everything about Red is a brag.

March 29, 2014 at 7:55PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

Um, what test?

I have not seen any such test yet. Unless you are getting confused with Epic MX which I should say is a different camera.

April 3, 2014 at 9:48PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Ivan

EOS HD is reporting via its sources that Canon might be introducing two 4K capable cameras - C 200 and C 400 - at the next week's NAB. No word of whether these will be working prototypes or just something to expect in the future. Speculating on specs, C 200 will be something close to C 100 but with 4K and C 400 will be like C 300 but with 4K. C 500 will still be the highest priced of the cinema line, currently at just under $20K street.

March 29, 2014 at 3:37AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Ah, making a splash as the pool party is almost over.

March 29, 2014 at 10:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Enjoying some G...

There are dozens of reasonable quality 1080p video oriented products under $20K, from the hybrid $1,000 GH3 to fixed lens ENG style camcorders to pro tier C 300. By this definition, the 4K market has barely started. Even including those merely announced, Sony has Z100, AX1, AX100 and FS 700, if you count Convergent Design's Q7 as an extension of the camera; Panasonic has only GH4 since Varicam is likely to be priced far above $20K with its recording module; Canon has had 1D C for a while; ditto for JVC and Q10, Nikon has nothing, Black Magic Design has its 4K Production Camera, KineMax has no US distributor. There is not a single 4K ILC in the $3K-$10K range at all! But you know there will be many and soon.

March 29, 2014 at 1:30PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

I understand. Just that it's underwhelming that Canon comes out now with these. Taking up the tail, not sod bad. At least they showed up. Hey, who's that knocking at the door so late in the party? We're out of beer, and Doritos. Right-e-o! Just in time to be chuckled at for walking in the door so late. ;^)

March 29, 2014 at 4:33PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Enjoying some G...

The actors are going to hate this. Anyone over 16 already looks like hell at 4k.

March 29, 2014 at 8:26PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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blurry

There'll be filters to help that. But actually, there's actors that want that slice of reality to show. 16K is on the way. So there will be compensations for what you are talking about.

March 29, 2014 at 9:26PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

On top of that, I would think that actors who had a problem with being shot in 4K would probably have had just as big a problem with being shot on film or having a high quality photo taken. I mean, I understand that the formats are different and that a certain amount of airbrushing is to be expected but I still can't help but think this idea of actors hating 4K is overblown. But I could be wrong.

March 30, 2014 at 1:29AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Coty

Film is very sharp, but unlike digital also extremely forgiving and organic. The constantly changing grain pattern etc does not reveal every pore and wrinkle like digital. I also suspect that since digital sees further in to the infrared spectrum, that it brings out a lot of subsurface blemishes, veins etc

One thing I have noticed as digital has gone mainstream is that the actors are wearing heavier makeup. But it cuts two ways. Yes, it covers up skin problems, but with very sharp lenses and close framing you can actually see the powder texture of the make up on their skin. And it starts to really build up over the course of the day as they are constantly touched up. More makeup is also not a cure all for wrinkles. You did not have this problem with film.

I'm not going to name, names, but last year I worked on a summer movie and we got in a closeup shot with the new Summilux lenses. It was jarring when it came on screen. You could see that makeup had literally painted the actors face on. It actually looked like face painting. It was a weird combination of the lighting, closeup framing, super sharp lenses and an Alexa. Needless to say that in the theatrical release, this shot looked nothing like the original footage....

So, yes. This is a problem.

March 31, 2014 at 1:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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blurry

Are you proposing to filter 6/8/16k footage, so it looks like it was shot at 2/2.8k? The logic of that line of thought is along the lines of a circular firing squad.

IMAX resolution is not appropriate for every story.

In my experience 4k with modern lenses is still workable, if you treat as needed it in post.

I've never met or worked with an actor who wanted to look bad, unless it's going to help them win an award. And in that case they want 'good looking bad' or 'shabby chic'.

I think you would be amazed at how rough a lot of these very glamorous and seemingly eternally young people look in real life. Many of them need all the help they can get and since they are the 800lbs gorilla on the show, expect their concerns to be heard and addressed, because they outrank all of us.

March 29, 2014 at 9:49PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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blurry

I was told many years ago that a certain journalist/interviewer of an advanced age had a layer of wax applied the camera lenses when s/he was shown in a closeup. Wax also served a diffuser, saving that person from being exposed to the harsher studio lights. That non-Brazilian-waxing was easily noticeable when this celebrity appeared on shows other than his/her own - Letterman or Leno, etc. - where s/he looked far worse for the wear.
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Of course, Krusty the Clown was not worried about that [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJu9T73S2SQ ]

March 29, 2014 at 10:02PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

No, that's not what I was saying.

March 30, 2014 at 1:06AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

So ARRI sticks to bigger pixel design. Nice.

April 1, 2014 at 1:24PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Natt

Please! For the love of all that is holy can we pick a format and stick with it, please!!!! 6k? I get the stabilization benefit, but honestly, 4k itself is overrated for every day use and the production pipeline is such that going back to film may be about as easy a process. I would rather see camera companies work on the quality of the image rather than the resolution. Though they are not necessarily mutually exclusive, resolution and quality are not the same thing. Give me an ergonomic 4k or even 1080p with 14-15 stops of dynamic range and I will give you a film that looks as good as it needs to.

Ok...off my soap box... :)

April 4, 2014 at 2:37PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Andrew

If theatre size is shrinking and the audience numbers are shrinking, who will go to see a 6K movie? I can pause my TV and go do something else and then come back, rewind and watch a bit more. Why do I want to go to the theatre and spend $50 on popcorn?

Would it not be better to settle on a format for home use? What is the market? Who is the market and what is the Value Proposition of making a movie anyway?

Regards,
Rachael

April 4, 2014 at 4:38PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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The Panavision body looks like something an Imperial Stormtrooper would be carrying around, or a moon camera from 2001: A Space Odyssey.

April 4, 2014 at 7:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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This manufacturers not knowing what to do selling cameras. I shoot frequently on an Alexa and 60%-80% of the time clients want it shot in prores. Now 6K? It might have its advantages but why not focusing on better color depth and leave the resolution as we need it?

April 6, 2014 at 2:45PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Augusto Alves d...