July 29, 2016

First Look at Stunning Footage Shot on RED's WEAPON with HELIUM 8K S35 Sensor

We've all been waiting and now it's here—footage shot with RED's new HELIUM 8K S35 sensor.

Earlier this month, RED announced that the lime-green, custom-built WEAPON camera they made for Michael Bay had a little something special included on the inside: their brand new HELIUM 8K S35 sensor. And for almost three weeks we've been waiting for something—anything—that could show us the new sensor's capabilities. Now it's time. RED Digital Cinema has released a short film entitled Underdog that was shot on a WEAPON with the HELIUM 8K S35 sensor. Check it out below:

According to a Facebook post by RED Digital Cinema’s President Jarred Land, Underdog was the result of Land lending filmmaker Jonny Mass his personal 8K HELIUM WEAPON to him for just 24 hours.

Mass shot, edited, colored, and finished 'Underdog' in just 2 days.Credit: Facebook

Details about the sensor are still limited, but here are a few new ones that have surfaced:

  • 3.65 micron pixels
  • Sensor size: 29.90mm x 15.77mm (33.80 diagonal)
  • 8K (8192 x 4320) at 60fps, 8K 2.4:1 (8192 x 3456) at 75fps

But if you're bummed about still not having specs to really sink your teeth into, Land made an announcement in the wee hours of the morning today that might interest you. He mentioned in the RedUser forums that for one day only, the limited white 8K HELIUM WEAPONS would be available for $59,000 on RED's website. Unfortunately, these things sold out in a matter of hours, which means anyone who wants one will have to wait until October to get it.

The limited white Helium Weapons 8K s35 will be $59K, but that is a one day only thing tomorrow and they will ship tomorrow. No deposits, no reservations, and no waiting. They will likely go fast at which point all the rest of you can all just pretend this didn't happen and forget about all this Helium nonsense till October.

RedUser member Björn Benckert shared a photo of these white HELIUM WEAPONS.

Credit: RedUser

Not getting a chance to buy one of these HELIUM WEAPONS up during this crazy, last minute, middle-of-the-night sale might be a little disappointing for those of you with access to lots of cash, but the silver lining in all of this is that now that there will be more of them out in the wild, we can expect to see plenty of test footage, as well as a full list of specs. So stay tuned!      

Your Comment

51 Comments

Personally I like the Dragon colors better but man that image is so clean. He did a good job...

July 29, 2016 at 7:34PM

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Clark McCauley
Spaceman
1890

engineers*

July 30, 2016 at 12:56AM

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Seriously, is it my screen or the footage itself. I thought it was shabbily shot. I had to struggle to figure out the focus points in the image most of the time, except the kid's CU, Gloves CU, Trophies MS ( too much light for such a shiny prop ) etc...Was Jonny fiddling with the focus shift too much or is it the insanely fast cuts. Please correct me if I am wrong as I have seen much better footage shot on dslr-s.

Judgement: Not a great exclusive first Footage for RED Helium 8K , May be Jarred should throw this toy at, the likes of Philip Bloom et all :) Cheers.

July 29, 2016 at 10:35PM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

Bloom? Forget about it!
(does anyone give his view any weight anymore (if ever)?)

RED demanded to buy back (and did) the last RED camera he had.

And seriously harsh on the photography.
The guy shot all that footage in one day;
he had only 24 hours with Jarred's personal white helium weapon.
https://www.facebook.com/jarred.land/posts/10153851197335415

"So. Last week I met this guy Jonny Mass on Facebook. He is 19 years old. He sent me some incredible things he has been shooting with his Scarlet-W. I really liked him. So much Passion. In it for all the right reasons. So I sent him my personal Helium8K for 24 hours this week. Just a few days ago. Not sure how he did it.. but somehow... he managed to get an incredible crew together, some talent, some locations and he shot a little thing. Shot in a day and edited, colored and finished it in 8K a day later." -Jarred Land (facebook)

July 29, 2016 at 11:24PM, Edited July 29, 11:30PM

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Daniel Reed
Hat Collector & Shi no kōshō-sha
1349

First things first, nothing personal here Jonny. And I don't discriminate based on age or whatever, I bet Roger Deakins would have given a different spin to all this with that 'cameroid'. In creativity, its 'Maturity' and 'Outlook' because of it, is what matters - you could be anyone - a 15 year old or 75 year old.

And if you are given a chance to present something for the first time to a population of 7.4 billion people, I don't care if you are 19 years or 89 years, all I care for is for the footage to be the best or atleast decent enough. And i felt this one didn't meet the bar.

If he had time constraints, was he trying to chew more than he could, he should have made something short, sweet and simple but of world class quality because at the end of the day bad footage would reflect badly on the 8k. Ain't it. Yeah I am a well wisher :)

July 30, 2016 at 12:42AM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

Show me what you've done right now. Seriously. Lay out your best piece of filmmaking for me to check out.

I thought he did a killer job with a 24 hour shoot. Why not be ambitious? He clearly was going for a natural lit ambient image, which is pirely taste. Who are to say he didnt put it through its paces?

July 30, 2016 at 5:30AM

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Jeremy Dulac
Director/Cinematographer/Editor
118

Lol...audiences don't make movies but get to critique us filmmakers, we have to live with it, don't ever go to an audience and ask this question. How many times have you suggested a movie to your friends saying 'execution is bad but their intention is good', otherwise all movies would make money. ain't it.

Here I am not talking about their efforts, I do understand what it takes to get such footage and I respect all their efforts to make it. But the whole point is, we are not talking about the countless shorts out there, if this is the first footage of your best child and there are shots which are out of focus and are covered up with editing, it is a concern. Even if it is some mobile phone or Helium 8K, the first basic requirement is FOCUS, until and unless its a POV of a dizzy guy and hey I am not dizzy nor do I have short sight.

P.S: Don't be naive, this is show business. 24 hours could be a hook, it's like Jarred asking Jonny to tell him a 2 hour long story in the elevator trip to the 20th floor, do you know if Jonny was given time for pre production or not, if yes and he had the camera for 24 hours and 2 seconds, ok...only 24 hours, then this happens all over the world, everyday when people rent cameras. If Jarred just appeared before Jonny and gave him the Camera and said you have 24 hours, go mess with it, and Jonny made this short, even then I would say where is the FOCUS in those shots, because 8k or 16k would matter only when the shots are in focus, right.

So, chill buddy, I want him to be a better cinematographer especially when you are the chosen one, otherwise there are tonnes of crap videos out there and who cares.

July 30, 2016 at 8:01AM, Edited July 30, 8:09AM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

Loads of out of focus shots here as well, even with a much longer depth of field: https://youtu.be/uLt7lXDCHQ0

Focus is a tool, and here it works very well to simulate the punches landing on the character. Due to the fast paced editing and very mobile camerawork, I really don't see a problem with it. Have you ever seen a scene where a character is drunk and out of focus shots are used to simulate that? Works same way here.

You've bagged a lot on this video but have yet to say what it is you dislike besides the focus. The lighting is great and there are some fantastic compositions in there. Most DPs who are bigger names than you or I, have agreed that this would be good regardless of time constraints but the fact that it was shot, edited, graded, all in 8k in 48 hours is just mind-blowing.

July 30, 2016 at 9:37AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

It's simple, if it Eiiiight K / 8k, then the footage has to outclass 4k or 2k or HD, what if someone can get the same quality footage on a dslr, why should you spend 59K on this.

Coming to Bourne scene, it's a chase scene and the DoP might have tried to make it an immersive experience, so OoF shots are ok. Same Bourne series, the last one, there is a fist fight in a room with super fast cuts and the faces are mostly in focus, what now?

Coming to Jonny, I am not punch bagging him. He should be something for Jarred, President of Red Cams to lend his camera to. His brilliance in shot division / Composition is seen at 0:05, he divided the screen into two exact halves, one at 3200k and the other probably 5600k or upwards. The brilliance ends there, pause the video and tell me is it 8K worthy WOW, I bet I can get more sharper image on a DSLR HD. I guess it's a bad choice of lens.

If you have a 8K camera then step up the game, is what all I mean to bag.

And I am sure you are not aware of 48 hour film festivals, people made some kick ass shorts in such festivals, there was one article here in NFS long ago, may be Jonny moved from elf's to teen's during that time; (It's a Joke Jonny).

Last Punch - the Rocky, no K's in there but still packs a lot of punch even now or forever :)

July 30, 2016 at 10:36AM, Edited July 30, 10:53AM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

I'm beginning to understand. You seem to think 8k magically changes everything. 8k is designed to give a great 4k image. The way debayer sensors work, you have to reach much higher resolution than what you're finishing at, to get the full color depth.

If you were able to turn off in-camera sharpening on DSLRs you might get a decent comparison but you can't so that's kind of moot. Either way, very few DSLRs even come close to this kind of resolution.

I don't doubt that you can get great imagery out of DSLRs, but that is just not the camera, it's the talent behind the camera. Good lighting is always more important than what camera you're using. I can guarantee you, though, that if you get a talented DP in a room with a DSLR and a Red Helium, the Red Helium is going to wipe the fucking floor with any dslr on the market (except perhaps in lowlight performance) because it's simply a better camera when it comes to video.

I get that you're disappointed that it's not super sharp but may I ask if you're viewing this on an 8k or even a 4k monitor? This video isn't about resolution. It's about showcasing an entirely new sensor. Colors, skintones, noise performance, highlight rolloff, etc. All that stuff is generally more important than resolution to 90% of working DP's. There's a reason the Alexa still reigns king supreme, globally, with its puny 3.2k.

July 30, 2016 at 10:57AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

Well, I am viewing it on 2560 x 1440 2K mac 27

'Context' is the word of the hour. If you ask with what context this short was made or with what context does a viewer watch this short, your last paragraph makes lot of sense. While watching this particular video, no one cares for the boxer guy and whats happening with him, most of them would be looking for the attributes you mentioned in the last paragraph. If those attributes can be achieved using a dslr, this whole exercise is a waste. Can jonny shoot it better if given more time or was Jarred wrong in giving it out only for 24 hours and jeopordising the quality of the footage is relative. Why should an audience or a camera enthusiast or a hat collector who is viewing this video even think about it?

At 0:05, whats the HDR - it's ok, skin tones - moisturiser tone (pun intended), noise - grainy, Focus - ??? previous frame, it was the electricity box - are you kidding me? - now don't tell me it is symbolic to the actor charging up in the warm colour temperature by doing warming up exercise, colour tones - nothing significant - most cameras achieve this, now why should you shoot it in 8k bump it down to 4k or 2k and still get the same mediocre footage as most cameras do, what is it's speciality? This would be answered if it falls into the hands of a good dp or let me be nice to Jonny, if he is given more time with the camera.

When I talked about Roger Deakins, I remembered his work in Sicario which jonny was trying to replicate, shafts of light, different colour temperatures in the same frame, haze / fog etc...but the difference between their works is, in Sicario there is a definition to the light, there is a clear demarcation, you can make out what is a foreground, middle ground and a background. Here in this video, I am afraid its not the case, everything is in the same plane in most of the bout shots or where lighting was used for demarcation. And to use this video to market this product is questionable when it lost hands down to the 3.4K

Do you guys even realise what 8K could do to filmmaking, it can change the grammar of movie making. With it you can shoot one shot and use it for Wide, Medium and Close Up and present it as 3 different shots if projected at 2K, so what we are talking about is that if we can get 20 shots with a 2k or 4k camera, with 8k you can get 60 - 70 shots in the same time frame. So, 24 hours was equivalent to 72 hours and Jonny was teetering away with the camera.

8K vs DSLR is a no brainer and was never in contest. Now, let's wait for more footage to see what this big boy is all about.

July 30, 2016 at 2:21PM, Edited July 30, 2:27PM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

"With it you can shoot one shot and use it for Wide, Medium and Close Up and present it as 3 different shots..."

no No NO!
This is the exact mentality many had to deal and fight with from less knowledgable TV producer types and technically challenged inexperienced directors when 4K cameras first started becoming accessible 10 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#History

Your similar statement at this date reveals you are an enthusiast at best. Please consider taking one cinematography class, or actually shoot something with a couple primes of different focal points, then re-evaluate that logic.

Cheers

July 30, 2016 at 10:40PM, Edited July 30, 10:46PM

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Daniel Reed
Hat Collector & Shi no kōshō-sha
1349

LoL, thanks for the suggestion, I will consider taking a Master Class with Roger Deakins.

With Primes @ 1.4 or 1.8 it's not possible, that's basic. But @ higher f-stops having a larger focus area & with controlled lighting, it is yes Yes YES and if you plan it strategically, with 2 or 3 8K's (multiple cam set up) you are bound to get 6 to 9 different shots / angles at one go. Try it out buddy when you get your hands on the 8K's. Cheers.

July 30, 2016 at 11:51PM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

I should give up on explaining!

There's a reason why lens choices are made. Try it yourself. Shoot a two shot OTS on an 18, a 50, and a 100 - all at say T/F11

Lay image stills from each prime shot on top of each other in say photoshop and scale them to match up. Then turn layers on an off. You will see that a crop of an 18 looks very different then a 100. Especially pay attention to Z spatial compression. With the 100 the subjects will appear closer to each other, and on a 18 they will appear much further away.

July 31, 2016 at 4:52AM, Edited July 31, 4:54AM

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Daniel Reed
Hat Collector & Shi no kōshō-sha
1349

Arun, I've been shooting tests in 8K over the last week, for a project to be released late next year... so, yeah, there's that.

July 31, 2016 at 4:56AM, Edited July 31, 4:57AM

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Daniel Reed
Hat Collector & Shi no kōshō-sha
1349

Daniel, I am Glad to hear that you are one of the lucky ones to get your hands on the 8K (same one?), will wait 16 months to see that, it better be good and hope that 8K does not become obsolete by then :)

Ok, seems to me that you didn't get my thought comprehended the right way. Here is the deal, today in NFS there's a post on 12mm f 2.8 / f22. We take that lens, use higher or highest f-stop, to get a large area of focus, use lighting appropriately to compensate for light loss, shoot one wide shot, now you can compress it as a whole to project it at 2k as s wide shot, then crop it for medium shot , do u agree it had be higher than 2k, compress it to 2k, same with close up, either bump it or blow it to 2k depending on whether it is CU or XCU or how you composed the shot. Edit it masterfully, then you have a seamless 2k moving images - the movie. Why would you bother to change lenses. Spend more time, set up a multi cam , you also get the reaction shots, 3 of them, if you get to place the third cam on a slider, with talent on the same focal plane, you have 3 more shots which are dynamic, throw in goodies like parallax (pushing the envelope to the post office), occlusion, high contrast lighting, perspective, you would have completed a major professional looking scene even before anyone on the set is on their 10-1 (Yo! Morgan Cooper)

laying business not required.

August 1, 2016 at 12:02AM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

R u loving it Daniel?

August 1, 2016 at 12:07AM

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Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
771

I'm getting pretty tired of having to explain this to you. I suggest you take a class in either cinematography or camera design.

So to start off, you're missing about 5 million pixels on your screen to actually see the full resolution.

No, context is NOT the word of the hour. The context of this short has been pretty clear on every site it's advertised: Short shows first footage from RED's new 8k Helium sensor. If that was unclear for you, that sucks, but it was blatant for the rest of us.

When seeing footage from a new sensor, I'm pretty sure most DPs and camera enthusiasts look for the performance of that sensor. I'm also fairly certain that this short wasn't made specifically to tell an awesome story, but to showcase a new sensor.

Good, you should be able to tell a story with a DSLR or a cell phone for that matter. If you can't, then there's no need to rent a RED or an Arri or whatever tickles your fancy. Different cameras react differently though, and it's about choosing the right tool for the job.

At 0:05, that looks like pretty decent DR (just DR, HDR is something different) to me even though it's not the best shot for testing. But still, your analysis is of a graded image which will never give you more than what picture standard it was finished for. In this case, probably Rec.709, which limits it to 9 stops, with most monitors being able to replicate around 7 stops. My point, you CAN'T judge the dynamic range correctly in a graded image because the dynamic range that was captured is lost in the grade. If you want to try then look at the image where the boy walks into the gym in the sunlight. That scene attests to great dynamic range.

Skin Tones are the best I've ever seen from RED (perhaps with the exception of Stranger Things) and they look really natural. Noise performance is incredible. The fact that you call this noisy, makes me think you've never shot RED or Alexa for that matter. This looks waaay cleaner than both of those.

Again with the focus? You defend out of focus shots in Bourne because the DP MAY have wanted to make it an immersive scene and then you complain about the same thing in this? I get that you don't like out of focus shots but you're being a hypocrite. You're defending something in a $100 million Hollywood film that was made over the course of a year but complaining about that very same thing in a short film that probably had a budget of less than $5k and was made in 48 hours.

I'm not saying the color is symbolic of how he's warming up no. Using sodium for street lights is pretty common. Using a different color temperature for inside lights (especially if they're fluorescent) is just cinematography 101. Why? Because 99% of the time, they're completely different types of lights. The colors that this camera achieves is pretty astounding. DSLR will not give you this. But an Alexa, F65/F55, Ursa Mini 4.6k might. You need to get to the right data rates and color depth to be able to match this. DSLR's simply don't have it when shooting video.

Why would you shoot this at 8k and bump it down? Exactly because of the reason I told you in my last post. The way modern CMOS sensors work, you have to shoot it at 6k or 8k to get a TRUE 4k image. If you do this, you will NOT "get the same mediocre footage as most cameras do" (do you hear yourself?). The specialty this camera has is that it's one of very few that can deliver a 4k image with the full color depth. This is just the way it works, nothing you or I can do about it. Also? How many cameras give mediocre footage because of their resolution? I'll say this again; the Alexa is the most used camera on the planet and it was originally designed for 2k delivery (why it has a 3.2k sensor). It is not the most used because of its resolution. It is the most used (in addition to ergonomics, ease of use, and design) because of its DR, Noise performance, skin tones, highlight rolloff, color, skin tones, etc.

What do you know about what Johnny was trying to replicate? He has said nothing of the sort. Roger Deakins is one history's best cinematographers, but he didn't invent light shafts or using mixed color temperatures. Sicario had probably my favorite cinematography of last year, but most of the scenes in that film took longer just to rig the lights than this short took to shoot,edit, grade, and finish. Personally, I don't have a problem with extinguishing the foreground from the background. If this short lost to Sicario, it's because Sicario was shot by one of history's best cinematographers. Simple as that. Had Deakins shot on a RED Helium instead, it would've looked just as good and probably slightly sharper. Deakins shoots on Alexa because he thinks it's the only camera that's been able to match film. He's also said he'll shoot a film on a cell phone if that's what's right for the project.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO! You can but you won't get 3 different shots out of one. Once again, you're arguing against yourself. Your whole argument about detail gets lost in this scenario for one. How sharp do you think a cropped 2k image is going to look against the 8k image it was taken from? It won't. You also talk extensively about separating your subject from the background. In addition to lighting, set design, and composition, lens choice has a massive influence on this. There's a reason there are different lenses; they present an image very differently. If cropping out two extra images from one wide, you're not changing the depth of field. The foreground and the background is going to look exactly the same. The only time I would do this is possibly when doing interviews and I didn't have time to set up a second or third cam. Ask Roger Deakins what he would have to say about this. Look to this helpful gif if you want to understand how different lenses affect the subject: http://giphy.com/gifs/portrait-l46Cxn3DvFngmYzba

It's still not fucking about 8k vs DSLR. It's about the RED Helium vs Dragon vs AlevIII vs F65 sensors. It's about bringing something new to the table and seeing how that might help filmmakers tell their stories even better in the future. DSLR with their shitty 8-bit codecs and massive compression was never in the running. That was never the contest.

I appreciate that you're making your own opinion, but you're gravely misinformed on a number of subjects and I suggest you try to sort that out before arguing about them, because this is pretty tiresome.

August 1, 2016 at 7:33AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

Answered paragraph wise to assist your Reading Comprehension.

1) Me too, but I am good guy, so lemme clear up your brains a bit. To start off, Jack please take an english course which specialises in ‘Reading Comprehension’. or Try Shane Hulbert’s recent advise of reading books, he listed 7 of them, u already know about cinematography so you will learn the much needed Reading Comprehension.

2) It’s a 4k video and everyone gets to see it at 4k only not 8k Bueller. Also, I am flabbergasted to see ‘stunning’ images from DSLRs on this 2k monitor, and an 8K cam is competing with, oh it’s so great.

3) Right and the first footage matches all the cameras available in the market and the price of this 8k cam is only $59. Yahooooo.

4) Unfortunately, that sensor was sulking the whole time, don’t worry big boy sensor, someday, someone will show the world your true capabilities. Yeah an awesome story, ‘Rocky 8000th’.

5) Jonny could have used a Gopro for this project and could have come up with real ‘stunning’ images, with that time tick not biting his butt.

6) It’s a mix of good and bad shots, I accept. but this is no video coming from an amateur who uploaded it on youtube, it would become ‘stunning’ only when all the shots are good. and you have an Helium 8k with you, wake up.

7) Skin tones and noise is relative to each one’s opinion. I bet they would not have used the 8k cam to picturize that scene. pretty simple. So is the reason he is shooting the Bourne series.

8) Reading Comprehension - I was not talking about colour temperature there, it was about the electricity box which was in ‘focus’ of all other things in those frames. Why? because the cameraman was gunning the cam without bothering about the focus and also, remember what that time tick is doing?

9) “4k image with the full color depth” which is matching most of the cameras out there in the market is a joke, it has to be -wow- not -match-. so where did it go wrong? RC comprehension again, I said I remembered Roger Deakin’s Sicario when I saw this footage based the techniques used, I analysed the output of those techniques which were used. why would I compare some Jonny with Roger Deakins. Reading Comprehension = english classes. Also look up ‘Online Editing’ or Onsite Editing where editors get to work the moment you are done with a shot or scene. Upgrade yourself on how movies are being made these days.

10) I give you the benefit of doubt in the first part, it takes some understanding of cinematography to be able to do that. But its doable. Great cinematographers not only know techniques (which most of us know) but also know when and where to apply them. If you can only think interview set ups thats what you will end up doing your life, Godfather was introduced in a similar interview setup and the whole world went bonkers, cinematography played a major role in it. When Dr. Malcolm Crowe - the sixth sense - realised that he was a ghost too in a similar (two shot) ’interview set up’, it twisted the dumb ducks out of audience’s brains across the world. rolling ring followed by a close shot of the ring, 8k-4k-2k.

11) Yes, it is about ‘Application’ and ‘Context’. Mr. (Daniel’s) Attorney, In english language this not called ‘argument’ but a conversation or exchange of views. NFS is not a legal court to argue but a place to discuss and share n exchange knowledge or thoughts.

August 2, 2016 at 7:23AM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

Excuse me? Reading comprehension? Don't talk to me about reading comprehension when half your post is gibberish. Big-boy-sensor, Rocky 8000th? Get the fuck out of here. On top of that, it's grammatically more incorrect than vice versa.

But you wanna talk reading comprehension, fine. You're missing about 5 million pixels on your display to view it at 4k. I don't know how you could possibly misunderstand that. If you were to have excercised your majestic reading comprehension skills at the source (RED CEO Jarred Land in this case), you'd also have seen that the short was finished in 8k (ie. there's an 8k master somewhere). You're missing approximately 30 million pixels on your monitor to properly view that.

Johnny could've used a DSLR, GoPro, or a fucking Handicam for all I care. He's a good DP, so he would probably have gotten great results with all of them. The short would NOT have looked the same however. The lack of dynamic range in those options drastically changes the way you have to light a scene. Most of all a GoPro cannot achieve short depth of field, which is one of the things that has commonly been attributed to the mythical "cinematic look".

Here is a scene from The Desolation of Smaug where Peter Jackson mixed GoPro (underwater shots) with Red: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM7byUTrSZA

Since the GoPro is so fantastic, can you please explain to me how Peter Jackson with his $200+ million budget can't stop the GoPro shots from looking excruciatingly bad and sticking out like a sore thumb?

This is a direct quote from your post above: "now don't tell me it is symbolic to the actor charging up in the warm colour temperature by doing warming up exercise". Now you're saying you're not talking about color temperature? Reading comprehension right? Regarding focus on the electricity box, what you wrote isn't even remotely a sentence. I really don't understand where or when you mean. Try writing actual sentences instead of just jumbled words that are incomprehensible.

Mix of good and bad shots? Why don't you take a page out of your dear pal Roger Deakins' book. He's said on multiple occasions that (paraphrasing) "cinematography is not about creating beautiful images, it's about visually moving a story forward, and sometimes the most beautiful images aren't the ones that fit best with the story". The Revenant demonstrates this perfectly to me. The cinematography draws too much attention to itself and overshadows the paper-thin story completely. Sicario was visually a much better told story.

Whether you like it or not, you actually DID compare the Johnny's work in this short with Deakins' work on Sicario. Saying you never would compare the two, afterwards, doesn't change a damn thing.

I'm going to explain this to you one last time. If you still don't want to understand, then fine, at least I tried helping you along the way.
4k with the full color depth. The way you achieve this on debayer sensors is through upping the resolution. It's not about MATCHING every other camera on the market, because NO OTHER CAMERA on the market (except for the Sony F65) comes anywhere remotely close. Sony, Arri, Canon, etc. all have to put out higher resolution cameras to get the full color depth as well. They have to match RED at this point. Why? Because it's TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get the full 4k color depth out of a debayer sensor that only has a resolution of 4k. Read up on why the F65 sensor is so special and why it's not considered a true 8k sensor. Sony used more pixels on the width of the sensor precisely to reach maximum color depth for 4k resolutions. Other than the F65, the one exception I can think of (hardly used anymore) is the Panavision Genesis which uses a non-debayer CCD sensor as opposed to the more common CMOS debayer sensors used by practically all camera manufacturers today. Here's an article that explains this: http://www.xdcam-user.com/2011/01/when-is-4k-really-4k-bayer-sensors-and...

Well, here's the simple truth. Most producers and directors would call you lazy and unimaginative if you wanted to crop in on an image you already took instead of changing to a different lens to get the actual image you want in full resolution. Cropping new images certainly has its use. Interviews is one of them. Documentary in general, where you often don't have time to switch lenses, is where it might come in handy.

Godfather was introduced in an interview set up? What does that even mean? It was a feature film and not an interview in any way. The cinematography in that film is considered one of history's greatest feats in the field. Mostly it was because that type of low-key very top-heavy lighting (creating dark shadows under the characters' eyes) simply hadn't been done before. That's why people went bonkers.

Good that you brought up The Sixth Sense, because that perfectly demonstrates what I'm saying as opposed to what you're saying. In those shots, they change lenses and/or move the camera for each shot. Back then, there was no 8k/4k/2k. It was 35mm film and if you were to crop 35mm film down to the size of Super8mm film you'd get grain, the size of people's faces.

This is a place to discuss things, I agree. But once again, you're throwing so much misinformation around and you're doing it with a holier-than-though attitude that's not very cool. When people (I'm not the only one) call you out on it, you get defensive and patronizing. That leads to people wanting to know who you are and what kind of work you do since you have such an easy time complaining about other people's work. Call me attorney or whatever you want, I really don't give a shit. There's a lot of information in my post that I hope you take to heart, but if you don't you'll probably learn it the hard way down the road. Or not...

August 3, 2016 at 10:25AM, Edited August 3, 10:32AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

LOL. sorry, but I find it funny when people get agitated (jumping up and down like a molecule) for nothing. Writing Skills =/= Reading Comprehension. Not all writers write the same way, each has their own style and reading to understand them is RC.

I didn't get into the mathematics of the pixels in that part :) try understand what I meant then.

Canon 7d was mixed with Arri Alexa in Whiplash, the movie which partied at the oscars, can you figure out which shots / scenes were from 7d. That is why I used the phrase 'masterfully editing'. PJ of TDS failed in that endeavour of mixing go pro with red, what about movies where go pro was mixed with red seamlessly, it's ok to fail coz no one is perfect but its important to learn, I wanted Jonny to see those shortcomings rather than throw trash at them, I respect the efforts that goes into making of any movie, irrespective of the outcome.

Just because you are throwing so much technical details at me, I guess I am supposed to give into you, alright, I will, you win. But, also check out https://www.lytro.com/cinema ; This camera is based on 8k-6k-4k-2k at the core, think about it. In future if you are using this principle, think about me.

I meant if you had to shoot 'interview set up' scenes like in Godfather or Sixth Sense using this 8k-4k-2k principle. Reading Comprehension err..sorry, bad writing skills.

You win the last bit, seriously. Whenever I try to emphasise a point, you know what, Q Tarantino gets into me, and my emphasis gets aggressive and sounds like me being defensive. I don't know how to fix it. So, Blame it on QT and please bear with me. I will try to sober out.

As if, you will become an Attorney and a millionaire because of it, just because I called you one. Relax man, it's just a joke.

Some more Humour, if you have any 'Knock Them Off' list like in 'Something about Mary' and my name in it, please strike it off. Peace out.

August 4, 2016 at 2:24AM, Edited August 4, 2:22AM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

I'm on board with your thoughts about the challenges. They did amazing for what they had and it's not that Jarred was like, oh shit, this is going to be the most epic thing ever. He said, here, you've got 24 hours. From nothing, Jonny and his crew made something pretty killer with a bit of story behind it. His vision came to life in the next 24 hours of editing. You don't understand, this was shot on Tuesday. This last Tuesday. They had zero time to prep, cast, location, storyboard... They had a challenge and they met it.

July 30, 2016 at 12:48AM, Edited July 30, 12:50AM

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what's the plot?

July 30, 2016 at 12:59AM

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Loads of people listen to Bloom. He is still a fantastic DP and gives a lot to the community. He is known for not liking RED though. AFAIK he hasn't owned a red in many years. His business partner owns a red epic dragon though.

Other than that you're on point.

July 30, 2016 at 9:17AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

yeah and Bloom is also a domestic abuser, so i'd personally prefer if people stopped giving him the time of day

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/12764/poor-philip-bloom/p1

August 1, 2016 at 8:16AM, Edited August 1, 8:16AM

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Hopefully RED makes a CARBON MONOXIDE 99999K sensor next so we don't have to hear about their MIND BLOWING cameras anymore.

July 30, 2016 at 12:39AM, Edited July 30, 1:07AM

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BD
359

I feel like many cinematographer constantly say they want better skintones, better color response, lower noise floor, more filmic colors, better highlight falloff, more dynamic range, better motion cadence, but I guess throwing in more K's was the answer?....especially in a sensor that is designed for super35mm lenses, but without the 4:3 area to completely cover super35mm anamorphics. Something is not clicking....

July 30, 2016 at 1:06AM, Edited July 30, 1:06AM

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Funny. Resolution aside, I actually thought the colors in this were the best colors I've ever seen out of a Red camera (and I really don't care one way or the other). The skin tones felt much more accurate than MX or Dragon, and the blues and reds felt deeper, very Alexa-like.
I also found it interesting that the image was so clean. I don't know anything about the lighting they used or the exposure, but I expected Helium to really struggle with noise--in this video it definitely did not. Though again, I don't know anything about the lighting conditions.

Anyway, I guess I've always been on your side of the fence: who cares about more resolution? The Helium felt silly when it was "announced." But having seen this, I have to say I'm excited to see more. It seems like another step toward full maturity for Red, and I'm always a big advocate for as many good options as possible when it comes to tools.

July 30, 2016 at 2:49AM

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Kenneth Merrill
Director
1128

Yeah, it looks really good.

July 30, 2016 at 3:12AM

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Álex Montoya
Writer/Director
437

Yes, definitely the colors are better compared to the Red One and MX sensor but still no cigar to Alexas or of course Film's :P. And trust me you watch the original end result on a large 4k screen, you're going to see a louder noise floor and more strange digital behavior compared to Alexa's, especially with the pixel pitch of this Helium sensor. Many RED guys will say there's no noise, but you enlarge it you will def see more. Their specs are skewed. Seen enough red player(yes red player) footage to know. But I do respect the engineers for their hard work! Those guys definitely put up with alot from upper management

July 31, 2016 at 3:28PM

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Hi there Kenneth,

For what it's worth, the video was graded using our LUTs. I've talked to Jonny and we're going to do an interview with him about the shoot. I'm not trying to sell anything though, you simply stated that you enjoyed the colors, so I thought you might wanna check these LUTs.

Kindest regards,
Goran

July 31, 2016 at 7:00AM

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i think the lenses look clinical as f*#k, no love. in my opinion, many skilled dp's could get that look with most cameras. the compression is so bad on the vid too.

July 30, 2016 at 1:24AM

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Adam R. Taylor
Director/DP
84

Looks like video to me, like all the RED cameras. I want to see some demos from the new 8k Panavision or 65mm Alexa.

July 30, 2016 at 3:52AM

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Well, the panavision is a red dragon sensor so it will most likely look like red when it comes to motion, and the Alexa65 is based on the Alev3 sensor so it looks like an Alexa in regards to motion.

July 30, 2016 at 9:40AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

I honestly can't make a huge difference between the new line of red camera and the old one... Gorgeous tools both of them. Can someone explain to me the real benefit to trade an old MX for a weapon ?

July 30, 2016 at 6:37AM

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Well, a lot has changed from MX. The Dragon sensor alone is a huge improvement and this is the next step after Dragon.

Also, the design of the DSMC2 brains is just so much smarter than the epic/scarlet. The whole modular camera system is finally coming into its own.

July 30, 2016 at 11:00AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

Hats off to the makers. Incredible work in the time frame. I cant tell any difference on my phone between this and other red cameras. I can imagine projected in 4k the distance will be more noticeable. Will check out on my 4k screen later. Vfx guys are gonna love the extra resolution. For most applications I reckon Red have hit the sweet spot with scarlet-w. Be interesting to see the low light comparisons.

July 30, 2016 at 7:00AM

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Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
771

IT'S COMPLETELY MINDBLOWING...how I don't care at all...

Excuse me guys but does anyone actually make equipment choices and judgements just on internet videos? I don't...I rather test myself because hell knows what kind of treatment this stuff went through. And then this hilarious Red marketing ideas. Instead like giving their cameras to working professional DOPs first like Arri does they give them to awful directors, noobs and children, then stir up a horde of fanboys who praise them for their achievements. Don't get me wrong, Red changed the camera business and shook it up heavily, but almost a decade later after that they still go the loud, noisy and unprofessional way to market themselves.

July 30, 2016 at 7:08AM

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a

July 30, 2016 at 9:06AM, Edited July 30, 9:08AM

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JoachimV
202

Arri gave the Alexa mini to a pro skateboarder at its launch. Other than that, AFAIK, they don't give cameras to anyone. They happen to be the preferred choice for many working DPs by that's not the same thing.

Awful directors, noobs and children? What's your problem? I'm sure you could wipe the floor with this in less than 48 hours. Or, how about this. Start a camera company and show them how to run it in style!

July 30, 2016 at 9:14AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
364

P.S.: and what's this "sale" stuff they pull off all the time?

July 30, 2016 at 10:32AM

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Footage is unimpressive. Story of short is so stupid it really takes away from the quality they are trying to show also. I'm gonna go watch the hbo boxing promo that was great to get this bad taste out of my mouth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtMm0swu5i8

July 30, 2016 at 1:01PM

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Jake
167

hehe you should watch the other boxing promo by the very talented Romain Gavras's ad https://vimeo.com/25077581

July 31, 2016 at 8:58PM

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This kid should be proud of what he accomplished.

July 30, 2016 at 10:17PM

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Nick Novotny
Director of Photography / 1st AC / Colorist
17

"Mass shot, edited, colored, and finished 'Underdog' in just 2 days."

WOW... *that* is mindblowing. How did he get the location, extras, and talent together?!?!? I can't even imagine getting pre-production done for something like this in a week. My gut feeling is that this is really a project that he's been kicking around and jumped at the opportunity to use the cam once all the pieces were already lined up... but either way, incredible work. NFS editors - I'd love to see an article about how he pulled that off...

July 31, 2016 at 8:30AM, Edited July 31, 8:30AM

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At this point in the game nothing stands out. Dynamic range isn't to bad but again nothing ground breaking, DR in some respects is over rated anyway. The image does look pretty nice but nothing ground breaking to the competition. Compared to say the Alexa it doesn't drastically look better if even that. I've seen FS7 and F5 footage that looks just as good as this. Its silly really we have cameras that are so on par with each other now days that we aren't comparing leaps and bounds we are comparing mere inches. You take a good DP, the can make amazing images with cameras costing a fraction of the cost of this camera or even an Alexa. There is a video where someone did Alexa look matching with an FS7 and you would be hard pressed to tell which is which. My point is camera evolution is getting pretty silly. Wow 8K! seriously you can barely, and I mean barely distribute 4K in any reasonable manner to the masses, in fact you can't to the masses and thats a fact. 4K is barely worth the extra resolution for 98% of content. I have 2 4K cameras and went back to shooting HD for most projects because even uploading to Youtube at 4K and watching on the 5K IMAC it didn't look much different then HD and other then that you have so few options to even distribute in 4K

July 31, 2016 at 10:35PM

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1) Can we stop stop overusing the word "stunning". It's an incredible cliche at this point.

2) Cool film. Props for executing in only 24 hours. That had to be difficult. However, I watched the film on my phone and on my computer and sadly I was not impressed. It was alright, not "stunning". The guy who said we're comparing inches now with new cameras is totally right. There are way too many suitable options out now to drool over every new spec lists. Granted the top end cinema cameras are there for a reason, but at the end of a day it's a cinematic tool. You don't judge a carpenter by the quality of his hammer. You judge him by the quality of his work.

3) When the images were in focus, man they were nice. But they were out of focus more often than not to me. I understand that a fast paced close up scene can be hard to pull focus for, but if that was an artistic decision, I guess I am not a fan.

4) 8k is so incredibly unnecessary right now. Mass distribution of 4k is still a considerable hurdle. And to the guy who said to shoot in 8K to get 20-30 shots in 1 take, that mentality combined with the "youtube jump cut" is the equivalent of cancer to true cinematography. It's lazy and the allows technology to dictate the process and quality of the product.

At the end of the day cinematography is a skilled craft and an art form. Everyone reveres the cinematographers and DP's of their choice because they have perfected their craft and appreciate the art form. Deakins, Chivo, Charters, Pfister (my list) do everything with intent and purpose and do not cut corners. If they do I must be unaware and naive.

At the end of the day the cream will always rise to the top. To me, the filmmakers who actually put the time and attention in to compose each frame and light their shots will always be light years ahead of this "Oh I'll just shoot wide at 8K and pan and scan 30 times" nonsense. Get that mess outta here.

August 1, 2016 at 9:59AM

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Jerald Roberts II
Filmmaker
342

When it comes down to it, it's which company would you rather deal with. A lot of the serious players with no money limit would rather go to the brand that has survived two world wars, invested R&D in different cinema technologies, a proven record of reliability, close to double the amount of engineers, digital cameras that provide what the BIGGEST cinematographers want (not Ks), and specifications that are actually backed up with tests. Also word of mouth can be a big one, and RED just still has the frat culture mentality. Are they getting better?.... I don't really know. Recent times I've dealt with RED, it hasn't been so good. ARRI and Sony's teams seem to know more on technicalities, many of them have backgrounds in the industry (whether it be legit film industry or camera industry experience, not I sold apparel or went to Ai). I just get a different tone from a lot of the RED guys, that I don't get with the other companies. And cause of that, I'd rather deal with ARRI or Sony. The Alexa being the more filmic and still unbeaten camera in: dynamic range, highlight falloff, lowlight performance, color response, skin-tones, motion cadence, fan noise, a 4:3 chip(for true anamorphic), and reliability...makes it even easier to choose.

August 1, 2016 at 5:26PM, Edited August 1, 5:26PM

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Dear Doctor of Cinematography, I meant you can harness the power of 8K by applying this method (multiple takes in a single shot) if you only had 24 hours with the camera. My whole point was that right from the beginning, ' 'application' of the camera which you have in your hand, use it properly. If Jonny had used a go pro 'ACTION camera' 4k or 2k for this project, he would have got 'stunning' images in much less than 24 hours. $599 vs $59K. Why the latter?

August 2, 2016 at 4:46AM

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Arun Meegada
Moviemaker in the Making
399

a lot of discussions going on about why red took this route advertise their awesome new camera. My take is "ok we gave this camera to a 19 year old kid. look what he did in 2 days. " so imagine what you awesome dps directors can do with this awesome 8k camera. and sold out in 15 mins. pretty awesome marketing for free.

August 1, 2016 at 1:20PM

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That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. I was too busy being wrapped up in my own salt.

August 1, 2016 at 3:10PM, Edited August 1, 3:10PM

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Jerald Roberts II
Filmmaker
342