August 25, 2016 at 1:43AM, Edited August 25, 1:44AM

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Who's jumping the Canon ship?

So I read this review of the new Canon 5d Mark IV (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/news/canon-5d-mark-iv-ar...). Between the 1.74x crop and MJPEG format, I'm switching to Sony bodies definitely for DSLR use. Who else will be doing the same, and why?

50 Comments

A better question might be "who's jumping the DSLR ship?" The reflex design is truly an anachronism. I have jumped ship in two directions: the GH4 (with m43 lenses) allows me to use lighter weight tripods and sliders and basically carry 2x the kit as I can with Canon. The RED WEAPON allows me to use amazing cine glass to make beautiful images, both motion and still.

I felt the 5D3 was over-priced when I bought it. It seems Canon is committed to selling a DSLR body at that price point, and I think that in 2016 (and beyond), there is no there there. That's quite a conclusion for me, having purchased my first Canon camera when I was 16 back in 1980.

August 25, 2016 at 6:38AM

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Yes, i jumped. I moved From Canon to Sony A7S. DSLR no more!!!

August 26, 2016 at 9:14AM

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I jumped to red hahaha. Canon hasn't realized yet that theres a couple other companies making way better cameras for the price and if they have realized that, they haven't realized that those companies are stealing customers...

August 26, 2016 at 11:26AM

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Clark McCauley
Spaceman
2063

Sony, Arri????

Nick Van Nuys

August 28, 2016 at 1:01AM

What about them?

Clark McCauley

August 29, 2016 at 9:21AM

I would say they have a bigger impact on Canon and RED. RED has to deal with competition from lower priced products from Sony, Canon, Panasonic that can perform pretty well, and Arri who still dominates bigger industry productions

Nick Van Nuys

August 29, 2016 at 9:59PM

I won't be giving up my C100 mkii just yet. It's one of the most enjoyable cameras I've ever used and I'm never disappointed with the image. Until Sony sorts their colour and videoish aesthetic out, it's difficult to care about the spec sheet.

Horses for courses though obviously! If I wanted a smaller bodied camera I definitely wouldn't opt for the 5D mark iv and would give Sony another look. But for now I'm happy.

I dunno if anyone else has this experience but I'm actually quite excited when a new camera comes out that I don't care about, because I don't lust after it!

August 27, 2016 at 6:24AM

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Liam Martin
DP, editor, part time director
687

Their Cinema line is AWESOME but it always seems like they compromise the DSLR line so that they don't devalue their cinema line.

Clark McCauley

August 27, 2016 at 10:44AM

The 5D is a photography camera Clark...they added photography features, making it still one of the best photo cameras available. It's not canons fault guys like you are around.

NinjaMonkey

August 28, 2016 at 10:30AM

I think everyone is totally correct that they have crippled this camera, but I can't see how it will affect the company much. Everyone wants something for nothing and thinks that companies are accountable to their online demands, but they are doing whatever they want at the end of the day, which in Canon's case is as you say...protecting the cinema line. You're both right in fact it's a photographer's camera.

Ultimately I'm not sure it bothers me anymore. If I want a second camera I'm not going to buy a Canon DSLR, so it doesn't really matter. I have regularly paired my bmpcc with my c100 mark ii in fact and you can match the colours quite nicely. There are always options.

Long live making films and tools coming second!

Liam Martin

August 28, 2016 at 11:27AM

Agreed

Nick Van Nuys

August 28, 2016 at 1:38PM

Ninja, come on man, no need to be rude. Rise above the harsh comments and add useful information instead of swiping at people.

David Dearlove

August 30, 2016 at 9:33AM

Presumably the question also encompasses who is staying with Canon ? I am not a hard core user but this does not put me off the prospect of 5DMk4.

3 Reasons Why The New Canon 5D MK IV Might Not Suck
http://noamkroll.com/3-reasons-why-the-new-canon-5d-mk-iv-might-not-suck/

August 27, 2016 at 7:45AM, Edited August 27, 7:48AM

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Saied M.
976

I jumped ship when I got my bmpcc. Just got the a6300 because I wanted a camera with a more video-ish texture. Canon has served it's purpose in my career and maybe it will again in the future. But for now, RIP Canon.

August 27, 2016 at 9:55AM

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Don Way
Writer/Director of Photography
1074

Well I would say the C300 Mark II is a fine cam, but they lost their dslr video fans

Nick Van Nuys

August 28, 2016 at 1:03AM, Edited August 28, 1:03AM

It's not ship nor a relationship or a job, it's just a product. If you like it, buy it, if not, just don't. I don't understand this love / hate relationship people have with brands. The same brand can make good and bad product, just only buy the good one.
For canon I have switch to sony some time ago and I won't buy the mark4 but if they make a 5Dc or a mark5 that is great I don't see why I wouldn't.

August 28, 2016 at 12:03PM

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AvdS
1177

I think the 'ship' analogy comes from the fact that each brand has their own ecosystem. Once you've invested in native lenses, batteries/chargers, and cards, it can be expensive to just change brands when a new product comes along.

Landon Friesen

August 30, 2016 at 10:13AM, Edited August 30, 10:13AM

I may look at it for stills and some gimbal work. Canon color is nice... and their menus.... not their specs so much

August 28, 2016 at 12:21PM

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Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
721

Problem is their dynamic range is lacking

Nick Van Nuys

August 28, 2016 at 1:39PM

Sony has suberb dynamic range. I just feel they require quite a bit of color correction. The way the colors saturate is just a bit off to me compared to say Canon and Red. I can't speak for other brands with any great amount of experience. I think the IDC mk ii might be what I'm hanging out for. Surely that will have log and 60fps 4k... right? Right?!??? But if so, at what price? And would it be worth it as a bcam

Dean Butler

August 28, 2016 at 9:42PM

I really don't think any of them are as good as the Alexa, even the REDs with their newer sensors, which still to this day cannot reach the color response, highlight falloff, low noise floor, dynamic range, motion cadence, and low light capability (no matter what marketing and the RED fanbase says, actual tests show different every time). Sony's do have great dynamic range and you are right the color isn't as nice as the Canons, but they are very close. With a bit of extra tweaking it is hard to tell which is which. I think the Alexa line, Sony F55, and Canon C300 Mk II are probably the top digital cameras.

Nick Van Nuys

August 29, 2016 at 1:31AM

I'm sure you are correct about arri. I haven't personally used them due to the cost, only had a play. The arri image is magic. I would seriously consider the c300 mk ii if it did slow motion. I used it on almost every job so I just need it. I think Red has a nice image too, but what they really have going for them is their compressed raw. Redcode is a sensational format to work with. My usual doco workflow is red A-cam and A7s B-cam shooting slog2 with ND.

August 29, 2016 at 3:16AM

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Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
721

REDCODE RAW compression is the only reason I still have mine :'D It's so heavy and bulky and terrible to work with for long periods of time but it ALWAYS pays off in post.

Clark McCauley

August 29, 2016 at 9:23AM, Edited August 29, 9:23AM

I recently had reason to dust off my ancient 7D. It made me realize a few things:
1. That camera makes pretty images
2. It overheats like a demon from hell
3. it's not a video camera

Canon DSLR's are simply not video cameras. Yes they shoot video, but that's it. If you want a video camera don't buy a Canon DSLR. If you want to shoot some video as a hobby, don't get a canon DSLR. Considering that BM, Panny, and Sony are all developing DSM camera's that actually behave - almost like video cameras, for way cheaper, why in God's name would anyone dump 3k+ on a Canon DSLR?
-This is my opinion-

August 29, 2016 at 7:24AM, Edited August 29, 7:24AM

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Logan Fish
Video Journalist
278

Exactly my feelings. If you're in this for video, why in the heck would you by a photography camera.

Clark McCauley

August 29, 2016 at 9:24AM

Agreed!!!!

Nick Van Nuys

August 29, 2016 at 10:10PM, Edited August 29, 10:10PM

Because there is no affordable video camera shoot in full frame, that's mainly why.
But also because it's nice to have only a small package to carry around instead of two device if you like to do both still and video.

AvdS

August 30, 2016 at 7:23AM

AvdS - I see and agree with your points. But Canon FF DSLR's are in no way affordable, especially when compared to an A7S, and the whole small package concept is very misleading. By the time you add an audio solution, a big fat canon lens, and perhaps a shoulder rig, that aint a small package any more. There are cheaper alternatives that perform as well or better that are even smaller. Canon started the DSLR revolution but have done nothing since the 5D3 to solidify their place in the DSLR video market.
-My Opinion as always-

Logan Fish

September 5, 2016 at 8:46AM, Edited September 5, 8:46AM

All I read lately is how filmmakers are jumping away from Canon, but the 5D Mk4 has quickly become the number one selling camera on Amazon in just a few days. Those must be some massive pre-orders. So somebody is buying them? For what it's worth I use a variety of cameras but overwhelmingly prefer Canon's.

August 29, 2016 at 11:08AM, Edited August 29, 11:35AM

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Cole Black
Filmmaker
454

There isn't any ship to jump any more. Canon's DSLR line superseded to their cinema line for shooting video long ago. Besides, Canon glass can be adapted to Sony E and M43 mounts, and EF mounts are used on some other manufacturer's cameras and used on your older Canon that still takes great photos. No reason to dump them unless you need to free up capital for lenses for a new, incompatible camera mount.

BTW, the 4K footage coming from this new codec looks great. If you can handle the codec, crop factor and the limited slo mo frame rates the Mark 4 may still be a good option. Instead, I'd go with a 1DC for the C-Log since it is now selling for around 3K used.

August 29, 2016 at 1:42PM, Edited August 29, 1:45PM

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Marc B
Shooter & Editor
646

Canon has produced over 110 million EF mount lenses. Therefore, the market for the 5D4 is enormous.

Budget-minded filmmakers are only a portion of that market.

For pro filmmakers, Canon offers an entire cinema camera lineup. For pro photographers, they offer the 1D series stills cameras.

I'm not sure why anyone would "jump ship" because one single Canon product doesn't meet 100% of their personal needs.

(Source: http://www.canon.com/news/2015/jul08e.html)

August 29, 2016 at 2:33PM, Edited August 29, 2:36PM

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BD
390

I am not just disappointed at Canon's decision to dumb down the video on the 5d Mk IV, I am offended. I put off buying a camera because I hoped the 5d MK iV would again be a great combo camera. The 1D X Mk II came out with impressive still capabilities but only 8 bit 4:2:2 in a disappointing mjpeg codec. I think, okay, they are making the 1D X Mk II a stills camera. Maybe they will do more video with the 5d Mk IV. Nope. And they cropped it. Sigh. It doesn't even compete with Nikon. Shame. Dishonor.

I guess I should thank Canon. They made me a competent filmmaker over the last eight years. I've created over 200 TV commercials. I've shot 50,000 still images in fashion photography. Now, it is time to go to RED for my video and either Nikon or Sony for my stills. Have you seen the leaked specs on the upcoming Sony A9???? 70 to 80 MP and unlimited RAW burst!!! RIP Canon. You did good for awhile. Unfortunately, your color science is sorely lacking now and will not survive in a 4K world. You still have good glass on the low end but now I am moving to cinema lenses. Have you seen the releases about the new Sony Master Glass lenses??? Sony really wants to take customers from Canon and they are going to do it. RED is going to get my business, too. Canon, you failed. It's not that your technology is so bad, it's that you created artificial categories that prevent you from adding truly innovative new products that keep up with competitors. When your competitors are delivering amazing sensors and color science in evolutionary products at lower and lower prices, you cannot compete without cannibalizing existing lines. RED and Sony here I come.

August 29, 2016 at 3:45PM, Edited August 29, 3:45PM

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I would stick to Sony's cameras, just a much more reliable product and more educated experienced customer reps.

Nick Van Nuys

August 29, 2016 at 9:56PM

I guess you should thank Canon too. All you are really saying is that your requirements in the industry have changed. I have seen the glowing reviews of cameras like Sony mirrorless and the recent Fugi 4K, but underneath the specs, there are potential heating issues and other gotchas. Your own post demonstrates the conservative reliability of shooting for hours and hours on which careers are built. I wish you well with your RED, but just as Canon have lost your business, they will gain mine.

Saied M.

August 30, 2016 at 8:27AM

Well, please don't sugar coat your thoughts....;)...I will take exception to your statement about "Canon's color science is really lacking now and will not survive in a 4K world"....really? Are you talking about the 5D4? If so, you have not had it in your hands to make that comment. If you are talking about Canon Cinema & DSLRs in general, you are quite a bit off mark. Canon is known for nailing flesh tones...warm & creamy...vs REDs or Sonys which are in "cool & crispy, a somewhat videoish look" direction. Yes, a lot can be done in post to overcome that but out of the gate, Canon nails face tones.

Jim Martin

August 30, 2016 at 6:51PM

I am responding to Jim Martin's comment. Jim, your challenge about Canon's color science intrigues me. I want your opinion so I can better understand. Let me tell you my experience and what I see and I want to hear your perspective or other people's perspective on this color thing. As I mentioned, I have shot 50,000 fashion photos which often included a lot of skin. I give you that Canon has some nice skin tones but are they really the best in the industry? I have shot with Nikon (D3) and had shoots where I shot Canon and someone I was training was shooting Nikon (D810). This gave us the ability to compare photos of the same subject. I often liked the Nikon skin tones better. I hate the camera because after shooting Canon so long, Nikon is backwards. Same situation with Sony. I have used Sony cameras since the Beta tape days. Sony seems too saturated. So, I guess I see a spectrum where Canon has muted colors and Sony and Nikon tend to oversaturate their colors. Now, shooting video in some type of Log to extend DR is becoming more prevalent. I am seeing a lot of videos that seem muted like they shot with S-log or Log-C and someone only partially color corrected or applied some crazy LUT. The muted videos look like Canon colors to me. (I like vibrant colors. Maybe it is because I live in the desert and everything is beige but I like vivid colors.) I am always bumping up the saturation in Canon footage slightly. I bump down the saturation in Sony or Nikon colors. My comment about color science came from two things. First, the fact that RED marketing and RED fans are always saying RED has the best color science on the planet. Second, HDR is becoming the rage. 4K TVs are coming out with HDR and seem to be selling well. If HDR is truly the next trend because people like it, it seems to me that slightly over saturated colors (Nikon and Sony) might become more popular than slightly muted colors (Canon). I am just throwing out an observation and wondering what you or others think.

John Blair

August 31, 2016 at 4:18PM

Well, I'm staying with Canon. I used and I shot with many many cameras....

I purchased a Sony A6300 when it came out. I had a great time with it but I never took one single photo with it. I just can't stand looking at an electronic viewfinder for photography. I wanted a nice compact video capable camera but now that the 5DIV is out, I'll be selling the A6300. I also couldn't stand carrying 5 batteries with me all the time for a day video shoot. (also the stress of turning the camera off to preserve battery life)... and the need of carrying a cage and support in order to get no shakiness from using adapters.

I do primarily photography and sometimes, I like to film. BUT I primarily do photography. So with that in mind, I do believe the 5D4 is the perfect camera for me. Maybe I'll be missing the log profil from the A6300 but less time in grading and there's always picture profil to play with.

AND for larger, bigger, project, I'll be renting a FS7, a C300 MKII, a Red or an Alexa dependings on my production budget, needs, and desired look.

There's no perfect camera, there's just a good camera for your needs.

Were people really expecting a 5D to be thier camera for everything?

August 29, 2016 at 4:04PM, Edited August 29, 4:07PM

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Danny T
Photographer
481

I'm looking at the answer you gave to Cole "5D isn't intended for shooting large project video like a cinema camera would" but it seems capable of narrative film-making (albeit not purpose designed for that). Would you agree ?

Saied M.

August 30, 2016 at 12:31PM

@Saied M. Yes of course! I think that even if the primary purpose that the 5D isn't video, it's a very capable video camera and you can surely shoot larger project with it. People have people doing amazing things with nothing, and I don't believe the 5D is nothing ;)

Danny T

August 30, 2016 at 12:50PM

If you have the option of shooting RED for tv commercials why on earth would you want to use a £3600 prosumer camera? They're not even in the same ball park.

August 30, 2016 at 2:02AM

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Cole Black
Filmmaker
454

I'm not comparing a Red and a 5D, what I'm saying is, the 5D isn't intended for shooting large project video like a cinema camera would. But as a photographer carrying my still camera with my all the time, I like the fact that the 5D can shoot proper video.

Danny T

August 30, 2016 at 9:04AM

Loads of insight here... Ahhh for my commercial work i use my Black Magic Camera. Weddings and short promo with quick turn around times i go to my canons. The thing is that, you really cant beat Canon's color and that's why i'd never really get a Sony for myself.. hate the color, but i'll shoot on it if that's what the client or Director wants. Some of my best work was shot on Canon especially the 7D. But to each his own.

August 30, 2016 at 1:41PM

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Wentworth Kelly
Director/DP/Colorist/Drone Op
2230

I shot with a T2i for six years (and even bought a second one). I shot commercials, shorts, and even the first T2i feature back in the day. I lost both cameras in a house fire just over a year ago and found myself with about $5000 from friends to purchase new film gear (I wasn't insured, won't make that mistake again). I initially was looking at a something from Canon that could run Magic Lantern, or possible a C100, which I loved the image from. But then I got to thinking: It's 2016 and Canon hasn't updated their APS-C (Super 35mm) sensor in years. Is it worth the money today?

I took an honest look at the images I had gotten from the T2i and made a list of features I wanted in my new camera: At least 1080 24p, at least a super 35 sensor, more dynamic range than my Rebel, no moire or aliasing, and a global shutter. After much research, I bought the URSA Mini 4k and I couldn't be happier. I will always look back fondly on Canon DSLRs and what they did for me and the indie film industry, but today, there are better options than a DSLR when you're ready to graduate. I still feel that they make great cameras for the budding cinematographer, but for the working professional or indie filmmaker, look at the other options. Make a list of what's important to you and do your research.

August 31, 2016 at 12:21AM, Edited August 31, 12:21AM

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Chris Tempel
Director
126

I think a lot can be said for using the right tool for the job. I used to stress the details and tech specs and still enjoy geeking out over new cameras. And can identify to some degree with the 'jumping ship' feeling.. but my life became a lot simpler when I realised I'm not making the next Avengers movie, you know?

I don't need to carry every single lens with me in case I need it. I don't need to absolutely have the latest 'insert camera model' here and shoot 4k raw for maximum post flexibility ect. All thats very nice, but mostly I just need to get stuff done. I focus on what's specifically needed for what I shoot and the way I like to shoot it.. and Canon bodies work great for me.

August 31, 2016 at 5:30PM, Edited August 31, 5:32PM

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Cole Black
Filmmaker
454

I'm into whatever company doesn't purposefully dumb down its gear and I feel extremely hopeful about the new wave of indie camera manufacturers such as Apertus and Craft. I am a bit pessimistic on what these folks will be able to deliver with their first attempt at mass production, but they've already begun changing the industry, leaving some incredibly big shoes to be filled by a company that definitely won't be Canon.

When the BMCC was first released, I felt really bad, because here was a company that was releasing incredible, new tech for far less money than the competition and then Magic Lantern unlocked the 5d Mark III's raw capabilities. Don't get me wrong, I love Magic Lantern, as nobody lights a fire under the big guys the way they do, but that's when I decided to move away from Canon. Canon purposefully holds back their cameras to control the market, which is their right, but I disagree with the ethics. Meanwhile, companies like BMD and Panasonic have been trying to release more powerful tools for less money.

August 31, 2016 at 5:43PM

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Sean Pettis
Filmmaker
333

I admired the whole Digital Bolex project, but they've already ceased production. The Apertus project is honest but has hit problems and delays. Craft is a massive unknown and have left no shoes to fill, not having filled any themselves yet.
BM seems good but the growing reputation for quality control is disquieting. Sony and Fuji mirrorless appear not to be robust enough (overheating) for long filming eg weddings, etc. The GH4 is cheaper, but the image has to be tamed in talented hands to get the best. I think Canon DSLR is looking extremely good for "out of the box" film-making picture quality and reliability. There is a trade-off in conservative specs and price, but I think Canon is doing well not to race to the bottom. Remember, the C300 was jeered before release, but loved after release. The XC10 was hated before and immediately after release, but is now being re-evaluated by many.

Saied M.

September 1, 2016 at 1:17PM, Edited September 1, 1:17PM

I was shooting on a Canon 600D for about 3 years, using it for a wide rage of projects. When it was time to upgrade about 5 months ago I looked at staying with Canon and there full frame options, like the 5D iii or 7D, but there was not real increase in quality regrading video sharpness. Yes is is a better camera for stills which I do shot as well, but for the price it's not worth it for what you are getting in return.

So I went for the Sony A7s which I picked up for about £1000, second hand but it was in perfect condition. The sharpness of the video and stills is superior to the canon, the color not so much but you got used to it.

After looking at the specs of the 5D Mark IV and the price, well I think Sony is a better deal. You can pick up a Sony A7s or A7r Mark ii for less than the Mark IV, so I think they are defiantly over pricing them self's out of the market for most.

When a new camera comes out, there needs to be something that ever significantly improves in the camera or add something that is new like the built in image stabilizer on the Sony A7 Mark ii line of cameras. With the Canon 5D Mark IV what's new that isn't already out there or cheaper.

September 1, 2016 at 5:52AM

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Canon just launched the C700. 4K, 15 stops dynamic range, 120p 4k, global shutter. Seems to be every spec you could possibly wish for and is built to rival Arri cinema cameras. With a price to match, naturally.

September 1, 2016 at 6:29AM, Edited September 1, 6:30AM

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Cole Black
Filmmaker
454

Canon is compared by film-makers to both the very high end and the very low end, which implies a certain misunderstanding to me - it is always the "if only" camera, but the price actually seems reasonable to me for a buy-and-forget-for-some-years camera, especially given some others are saying things like "Goodbye Canon, hello RED" (or Alexa).
I will just see if the 1DC has an immediate successor, then probably take a hit on either a 1DX Mk2 or 5D Mk4. I really like this thread and also enjoy seeing/respecting the views of others here.

September 1, 2016 at 1:19PM, Edited September 1, 1:26PM

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Saied M.
976

Canon is compared by film-makers to both the very high end and the very low end, which implies a certain misunderstanding to me - it is always the "if only" camera, but the price actually seems reasonable to me for a buy-and-forget-for-some-years camera, especially given some others are saying things like "Goodbye Canon, hello RED" (or Alexa).
I will just see if the 1DC has an immediate successor, then probably take a hit on either a 1DX Mk2 or 5D Mk4. I really like this thread and also enjoy seeing/respecting the views of others here.

Double post (doh). Sorry.

September 1, 2016 at 1:22PM, Edited September 1, 1:27PM

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Saied M.
976

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