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RED's Jim Jannard on New Camera Sensor Upgrades: 'The Dragon is Near'

06.26.13 @ 4:29PM Tags : , , , , , , ,

Red DragonIt’s been almost 3 months since RED’s showing at NAB — which included new products as well as camera sensor upgrades being performed right on the show floor — but where are the cameras with the new DRGAON sensors? Jarred mentioned in the forum that they’ve had to redesign an internal power supply, and this has affected their color science (which they are still working on). Either way, after months of promises, when might we see the fire-breathing beast — and will it be anytime in the near future?

Jim Jannard has spoken in the forum for the first time since late May — mainly for those people (im)patiently waiting for upgrades:

The Dragon is near…

And later:

The Dragon is late… but worth the wait.


I have to say that the skies have parted and the sun is shining… finally.

Some forum members have seen the cameras running in person — so this isn’t just a bit of smoke and mirrors — and we’ve also seen the EPIC DRAGON working in a photo recently:

RED Dragon with New Top Plate

As ambiguous as the statements above are, it can only mean that at the very least, we should be getting some footage very soon, which is one of the main things holding some folks back from pulling the trigger (or even considering this a contender in the first place). Those without a dog in the fight might wonder why so much time is spent on so very few details, but there is no question that what RED does affects every other company in the industry. Sony’s F55, a global shutter CMOS sensor camera with 14 stops of latitude, would have cost $100,000 just a few years ago, but thanks to steep competition from companies like RED, you can get one for under $40K.

The latest and greatest is always nice, but it’s easy to forget that you can still get some pretty spectacular results with what’s available right now. Here’s the trailer for Ridley Scott’s new film The Counselor, which was shot on EPIC:

And here is Stalingrad, a film from Russia shot on EPICs and SCARLETs:

Finally, in other RED news, if you’re one of the few who’ve ordered a REDRAY player, you can now control the device with the new iOS app called REDcommand. Jarred also mentioned that an Android version is coming (and if I had a REDRAY and 4K TV, I would still be left out with my Nokia Lumia 920).

So when do you think we’ll see footage from DRAGON? How about working cameras in the field? Do you think it will deliver on its promised stats?



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Description image 68 COMMENTS

  • “Stalingrad” looks obscenely color-graded. Josef Vilsmaier’s 1992 film by the same name looks better and feels more natural (also better acted, written and directed).

  • RED will have a place at the table for a while yet. Their current place in the market only looks bad compared to how dominant they were in digital cinema only 3 years ago. We owe them a HUGE debt. And with EPICSs showing up on CL for around 25k fully loaded, that’s a tempting package.
    If the DRAGON footage looks as amazing as they claim, then things may yet change in their favor. I think its interesting that they haven’t put any footage (to my knowledge) through any major LA post house yet, preferring to keep all tests in-house.
    Can’t wait to see it.

    • Agreed! They pushed the tools and made all the other manufacturers compete. It is interesting that cheaper tools have appeared so quickly. Black Magic, Magic Lantern and even GoPro are doing some amazing things on the lower end and it is crazy how good their footage is looking. I hope RED is taking a huge step forward here that will demand others jump up and compete.

  • Those two movie were graded spectacularly,

  • Great, another 2k for $19k. Does anyone (apart from the maniacs on RedUser) care about this?

    If you’re a low budget filmmaker, you can get the Black Magic from B&H Photo right now for $3k. Or even rent the Alexa. Both of which give a more pleasing image as far as I’m concerned.

    Red’s market seems to be a couple of thousand fanboys and a few eccentric film makers like Soderberg, Fincher, and Ridley Scott.

  • Wonder what Frames Per Second was used for those slow motion war sequences?

  • I hope it will delivered on the promised stats! The increased sensitivity will be very welcome. I really hope the DR is as good as they are saying, but if it hits 15 I think I’ll still be happy. The RED’ MX looks amazing in the right hands. I’d like to see some tests ASAP from someone (anyone!) comparing the MX to the dragon. It’d be nice to actually see them side by side (comparing color, DR and sensitivity).

    At the end of the day seeing an improvement on the color science would be brilliant. (With a good colorist I doubt it’s a problem). At the moment I’m experimenting with using film convert to help me with first grading pass and more pleasing skin tones.

    • It’s hardly a problem when you know how to light the scene properly to feed the sensor. I think people saying it’s bad on skin tones actually never worked with RED daily…

      And I love the old RED MX… great camera!

      • I guess Roger Deakins and Shane Hurlbut, among other Kodak filmmakers (who eventually went Alexa) are all wrong on the skin tone point as well then. At least according to your logic.

        With enough grading, the Red can look great. Though that is WITH grading and not in-camera as the Alexa and BMCC have demonstrated (which are much more like film in that respect). The color science remains to be the Red’s #1 Achilles’s heel. Grading is irrelevant.

  • Red or not, there is nothing exciting about that horrible, overgraded, cliched-filled trailer for Stalingrad.

    • The final shots of the Stalingrad trailer remind me of kurosawian apocalyptic imagery (those soldiers rising from the fire). I was on a superficial level, impressed by them. BUT the rest of this seems like a Stalingrad music video or more of a Zack Snyder version of WWII which I never hoped to have to witness!

      As for the new RED sensors: I have not met a single DOP, yet, who said that visually he’d favor anything over an Alexa except for 35mm film. Even old school DOPs like Zsigmond have uttered that they would switch to digital ONLY if they were allowed to use the Alexa. And the only cases I had serious problems figuring out whether something was shot on film or digitally was when the Alexa came into play. The story of Jim Jannard, the story of the RED, is very lovely, a classical ‘underdog shows the establishment how things are done’ kind of story and RED have to be given credit for finally starting film’s venture into the fully digital age – but they did so by making ARRI finally come up with the ultimate monster, the ALEXA sensor. And for the Dragon sensor, that thing is fierce competition, especially because I doubt 6K or even 4K to be the next great thing. And who stops ARRI from developing a 4K or 6K sensor eventually? And wasn’t Panavision going to develop a 65mm cam, too? Wouldn’t count them out of the game, too. Still for now, RED has my sympathies but every film shot on an ARRI shows them who’s boss.

      • Panavision may end up another AATON. They’ve had testing rigs out for over a year, but may not have the money to actually make the cam.
        Arri already has their 4K cam waiting. We were sure that’s what they were going to announce earlier this year, but instead they believe they have another year or two’s life lieft in the 2K Alexa which they seem to be right about.

        I agree with you that the Alexa is the camera of choice out there. But its good there are options.

      • Arri Alexa’s sensor was actually built by Cypress Semiconductor. While it was custom built, one would have to think that a similar sensor can be built for anyone with sufficient funds to pay for it. (Cypress sold their sensor biz to ON in 2011, which makes a bunch of related products for a bunch of purposes, including military and medical). There are, obviously, other sensor manufacturers – from Aptina to Omnivision to Samsung to Luxima, etc.

        • Thyl Engelhardt on 06.27.13 @ 2:42AM

          DLD: Arri holds a number of patents on read-out circuitry for CMOS sensors. I doubt that Cypress would be allowed to offer this to another customer. The Alev III is indeed custom built. And “Alev” is the name of the daughter of Prof. Reimar Lenz from the technical university of Munich who co-developed the sensor (at least the one for Arriscan) . Incidently, the D20 was developed with the help of a Max Planck institute. So, you can see that Arri is well connected with scientific institutes.

          Since the release of the Alev III, they seem to have applied for another bunch of patents. Those will probably be integrated into the Alev IV sensor.

          • @Thyl Engenhardt – Right. I wasn’t saying Arri had no involvement in the development of the sensor. Nor would I doubt competency of the German engineers and scientists. Having said that, the digital imaging business is very crowded and there is plenty of very innovative research everywhere – well, maybe except Russia – across the globe, with the commensurate volume of the patents granted. Arri, smartly, have a large share of the high end camera market at the moment but electronics – unlike, let’s say, an automotive market – has a very competitive atmosphere and there’s tremendous downward cost pressure on all participants. Once the major Asian manufacturers jump into the fray, Arri will be fighting in the sector that the German companies have historically yielded, at least in the US.

      • Daniel Mimura on 06.27.13 @ 4:35PM

        Whatever. Vilmos Zigsmond shot a short with the F65 recently. I’d like to see where he said he’d only switch to digital with Arri…I have never seen/read any interviews where he has ever said anything so dogmatically about film equipment. As far as color, I hear just as many people bitch about color out of Sony cameras. This has turned into to some Internet forum thing where people just hear something and keep repeating it ad nasium. All these cameras (RED, Sony, Arri) handle color just fine, and anything different is in the hands the colorists. Even film is especially trumped up here—you only have a couple options with stocks now so you’re limited there to the palette Kodak has chosen for u—basically vison2 and vision3 nowadays, right? (I haven’t shot film in a few years.).

        • In addition, if you have knowledge about light, light color, filtration, and its relationship to color temperature, you will get great color out of the box.

  • I’m not getting the comments saying red doesn’t look great. I’ve seen lots of Red footage that doesn’t look so great. But that’s on the editors not the camera. Because, I’ve seen some GLORIOUS Red footage.

    Here’s the latest from Jacob Schwarz shooting a Red at 4k and uploaded to YouTube at ProRes 422 LT. It doesn’t have that brown or green hue that so much Red footage on the internet has. Comes down to the editing…. I guess:

    • brett harrison on 06.27.13 @ 12:29PM

      yeah it does come down to the editing. RED doesn’t impart a look. You have to give the footage to good colorists to realise the full potential of the files. That’s why a movie like TGWTDT or House of Cards can look so different to anything you shoot (not to mention the expert lighting for the sensor).

      • Knowing this is what can be done with Red footage is why I would want a Red instead of an Arri. I have seen nice footage of Arri that looks gorgeous. But it doesn’t look this good. And when I see videos like these two I posted here I find it kinda silly that there’s people that say the 5D3 can match a Red. The Red really is a fantastic camera. For sure I’ve seen enough of Red footage that has a brown or green hue to it–what a waste of potential! And when I see footage like that I can see how some would say Red is overrated.

  • Here’s one of the glorious Red videos I am talking about:

  • wow, that trailer takes the teal and orange craze to the next level…but are we really doing the red vs. alexa debate AGAIN? I really thought that was finally over. who gives a damn anyways? If you want an alexa get one. if you want a red, get one. if you want a BMC, get one and stop worrying what everyone else thinks is best. if you cant afford either get a friggin used MK2. they are all nice cameras, but shit man! this isn’t a religion! who cares? they are cameras! argue about a screenplay or something.

  • Elysium = Red epic

    Google up the 4k trailer. Looks awesome.

    • You looking up the “4k trailer” is NOT going to matter unless you have a 4k display.

      • You can download 4K from youtube and watch it in actual 4K (as in only 1/4th of it is visible) on a 1080p screen. Sure you are not getting the full 4k experience, but you can see what difference the resolution actually makes and how much more detail is available. Just because you don’t have a 4k screen doesn’t mean you are completely in the dark. If your video card is fast enough you can also see what a difference it makes when it is shrunk to 1080p too (it looks great). Look for youtube download plugins for your browser if you want to do the same.

        The idea that size is only useful if your screen is big enough confuses me. I only have a 1080p screen but that doesn’t stop me from editing 18 megapixel photos on it all the time. Resolution makes a huge difference even if you can’t view the actual resolution on a 1:1 basis on your screen.

        • No it doesn’t. If you downsample you images by a lot, higher res image is going to end up looking the same as lower res image. So it really depends how exactly are you downsampling.

          But the important point that 4K lovers seem to be missing is the VIEWING DISTANCE. Many people and even companies have done tests on this (720p vs 1080p vs IMAX). The results show that to see the resolution difference you need to be closer than most viewing setups in normal use (whether it’s livingroom or cinema). People often can’t tell the difference between 720p and 1080p unless they are quite close. And most people don’t want huge screens dominating their home spaces.

          Further more, if you stop PIXEL PEEPING and just get absorbed in the movie, do you think you notice the resolution? In movie where there is motion and camera movement? Yeah right. And why would you want to see tiny details that 1080p can’t record? What would you get out of it? Do you really think that viewers need that? No they don’t. They need well made movie. To immerse in it and to enjoy watching it. Plus director and DP can easily show any detail they need and want, by shooting in such a way as is necessary for 1080p / 35mm film.

          In the film days people didn’t masturbate over all the technical details. As long as they got a sufficient camera (both film and photo) – which was probably pretty much anything over pure amateur stuff – they just used it. Aspiring filmmakers were super happy if they could shoot 16mm (or even 8mm) on any film stock! It was about the result, the movie, not the resolution or the dynamic range (yes there were people pushing the tech forward, but they were a small minority).

          I just realized, that people who are actually producing something meaningful, people who are filming, are not wasting their time on technical masturbation and fanboy blog wars. This bullshit is very strong among the photography crowd as well. I mean it’s laughable. People arguing about 4K – people who’s video is almost certainly NEVER going to be shown in 4K cinema. How lucky we are that 4K BMCC is only $4000! Now everyone can upload 4K videos to YouTube. That’s so empowering! Woo hoo! Make your cameras future ready! Cos Warner Bros are not gonna buy your stuff unless it’s in 4K.

          And yes me writing this makes me an unproductive timewaster too. But good thing that I realized this. Jesus. Enough with this nonsense. PeterK over and out. Peace and good luck to you all ;-)

          P.S. Thank you nofilmschool for all the many non-tech articles!

          • I’m not sure what tests you’re talking about, but this one is pretty thorough and detailed…


            And sorry, but cinema is a technical art. Many of the great filmmakers were very technical. Stanley Kubrick loved his tech, I mean hell The Shining is a steadi-cam love-fest. Cinema is where you take your love of tech and use it to tell stories.

          • I am not talking about down sampling the image, I am saying you can view the 4k on a 1080p screen at its native resolution to see what a difference it actually makes. Sure you can’t see the whole image at once to get 1:1, but you can still see the difference.

            I’ve seen films projected in 16mm, 4K, Imax, 70mm, cinemascope, etc. It makes a difference. I have read lots of reviews telling me that the average viewer cannot tell a difference between 720p and 1080p or 4k in most situations. Well, I must not be normal because I can tell. Seeing a 70mm film projected in 4k is absolute eye candy. I am not saying 4k is applicable for all projects. It is overkill for a found footage horror movie that so many young directors are cutting their teeth on. There is just no reason to ignore 4K saying it has no redeeming factors just because it is pricey. And it is coming down in price fast, as seen with the Nikon 1 V1 niche. You can go to your local electronics store and look at a 4K screen on display to see what I mean.

          • The Nikon 1 V1 at $330.00 is a great little camera. It has the nice Nikon color. If not for the 30 minute limit on video I would have already had some in use. It would be the low price, high quality solution for live streaming and recording of conferences I am looking for. That 30 minute limit sucks. It has cut out so much potential.

            4k video samples:




        • One reason that they “look sharper” is that real-time downscaling usually creates aliaising. That aliasing gives the 1080 version you are actually looking at a “sharp” look. It’s not better, it’s significantly worse.

        • I’ll be calling the Sears stores in this area this weekend to see if they have Seiki tvs on display so I can go in and have a long look. I know I want a 4k tv as a monitor. I won’t be buying one—yet—because I don’t have a 4k video card in my computer. There must be some video card manufacturer, likely a few of them, that are working on a simple, low cost 4k video card that will sell like hot cakes and make them a good profit. After I get one of those cards I will be buying a 4k tv, likely a Seiki because of the price, and I will be seeing 4k video at its best. I’m really looking forward to it. :-) All of the arguments about whether 4k is really better than 1080p, if people can really see a difference or not, will all be ended then. Everyone will see the crystal clear difference. And we’re all going to love it (at least I think it will be all of us, I should say most of us).

          • After making a call I found the 39″ is only available for order either in store or online and is not on display in the store.

  • I don’t understand the digital camera wars. Approach them like most cinematographer camera-agnostics do. With the increasing development of digital film, and from so man competitors (unlike the film days where it was stock from Fuji or Kodak) with different color sciences, and innovations in color grading/LUTS, you’d have to be nuts to be a single camera fan boy.

    Treat digital cameras like you would film stock. Each have their own unique advantages and maximize on them. You ever tell a cinematographer that he could only use one type of stock for all his shoots? So why with digital cameras?

    • Thyl Engelhardt on 06.27.13 @ 5:09AM

      Not? Well, then let me explain it to you.
      An apparent difference between males and females of Homo sapiens appears to be that the former are interested in “tools” as such, i.e. not for particular uses, but merely for the sake of the interest. That is why fields that are dominated by the use of complicated tools are crowded by males instead of females.

      Accordingly, topics on websites that somehow touch tools as such, will be discussed dominantly by males, and they will discuss the virtues of tools, not their use.

      Further, there is also a tendency of Homo (I believe that also applies to females, not only males) to “cluster” in tribes. They easily become a member of any tribe they feel they belong or should belong to. This results in such discsussion of tools to have a tendency to end up in tribal rivalry, depending on the tribes that participate in discussions.

      Lastly, reporting on such tools has an aspect or re-assurance of a decision made for buying (or longing for) a specific tool, when reading about it. Such decisions, often costly, seem to need confirmation from time to time. That is another reason why people buy or read e.g. magazines from automobile manufaturers, even if they presently have no intention to buy a further car of that brand.


    • I think the camera wars are because you are dealing with prosumers now, not just professional DPs. The previously secret world of cinemetography is now available to anyone with a few hundred bucks and a willingness to learn. That is a good thing in my mind. I mean a hacked GH2 won the zakuto shootout fan choice last year! And it won by a lot! Almost half the films at sundance were shot on a DSLR of some type last year. That is huge!

      Sure having a great camera does not make you a cinemetographer, but it definitely doesn’t hurt you! That being said, I wish people looked more at other aspects besides the camera like lighting and sound because a better lens or camera is not always the answer. I had a friend who was shooting a scene at night in forest and was trying allocate the fastest prime lens he could to utilize the dim light. Instead of helping him find the FASTEST lens available, I gave him some LED battery powered lights. Problem solved.

      The technical aspects of film making are so close to the artistic virtues that it is hard to distinguish them. You can’t buy the ability to compose a shot or light something beautifully, but you can directly compare and contrast gear. Gear is empirical. They measure it on graphs. Art is difficult with few easy answers.

      For instance: Christopher Doyle won’t even talk about lenses or rigs because he believes they are missing the point of painting with light. He often shoots using a pillow from his couch duct taped to his stomach to stabilize his arms! Roger Deakins tends to light most of his shots with 1k or 2k fresnels bounced off lanolin. He doesn’t even use a separate fill light most of the time! I heard Vilmos Szigmond say he once took down his lighting set up on The Deer Hunter because it was interfering with De Niro’s performance.

      In our search for art we find comfort in the support and certainty of technology. I’ve heard read comments that having professional looking gear is more important than having the best gear. Camera wars get more posts than an art thread ever will on this site. Tech talk is easy, exciting and comforting. Art is hard because it is you, not the camera, that matters.

      Well, that’s enough ranting for now…

  • So, where is the footage ?

    I can go around the telling people that I am the fastest 100m runner in the world. When they ask, where is the proof ?!

    I just directly quote Jimbo from Red : “Don’t piss me off “.

  • I wish RED would attempt to make a BMC Pocket Camera competitor: 1080p, perhaps 60 fps max, compressed redcode raw. A 1080p camera for film students, enthusiasts, indie film makers and the likes, priced lower. A great 1080p product, that could be used as a marketing tool to get people into RED’s workflow as well as into RED’s higher-end 4k+ products. A compressed raw format like redcode in 1080p would make so much more sense when outputting raw video to flash memory.

    • Pretty sure I can guarantee you that’s not going to happen…

    • Yea, I don’t even think this needs to happen… I mean, the BMPC is going to exist very soon. That and the GH3 (which has really really good 60fps) will be a killer combo. Both for under $3k! Plus, the new speed-boosters coming out will actually allow some good options on the smaller sensors.

      Red basically said they were out of the pro-sumer market a while ago. High-res, high-frame-rates, high-price… Production companies and VFX houses are their target market…

  • FWIW, I love the camera geek talk. Half a year ago, I couldn’t tell an F-stop from “Efff… stop”. Now, when I hear somebody saying that they need 10K worth of Fresnels for a high shutter speed shoot and twin Geminis for 4K 60 fps on Cannon C500, I sort of understand the lingo and the technology involved. And, when someone brings up Deakins and Arri, I go to YouTube and find his “Jesse James” lantern clip. Someone else brings up Stu Maschwitz and so I search there. Some information permeates the pores instantly. Some takes longer to sink in. It’s all good.

    • I agree! People say it is the art, not the technology that matters, but film making is an art dependent on technology. If you get the tech wrong your shot and film falls apart. My favorite films are made by intensely technical directors who have mastered multiple abilities from casting, cameras, lights, effects, set design, writing, etc. I heard Ridley Scott say “It’s all about everything. I come from the ‘all about everything’ school: some good thinking, some great narrative, good dialog, therefore terrific actors.”

      • +1

        Mastering multiple talents is really what directing is all about. I never bought into the claim that directing is “working with actors only”. Sure the director has to guide the actors and has the final say… but to say directing is “only about performance” has honestly always sounded like a scapegoat for directors who have no idea what they’re doing… or can’t actually visualize the movie in their heads… but still want the credit. It’s not about the actors performances… it’s about how they’re PERCEIVED by the audience… and EVERYTHING effects that final perception. Camera angle, lighting, sound design… everything.

        Not knowing the technical side of film-making, but claiming “you’re a director” (aka. the creative author), is like standing over a guitar player, telling him when you like a melody he’s playing, and then calling yourself a “musician”.

        • I believe they are called “Producers” in the music industry, not musicians! The interesting thing for music is now producers make their own music with computers. Film is heading in the same direction in my opinion.

          I talked with some friends who work in the special effects industry in Hollywood and they mentioned that working with Ridley Scott was the most demanding thing they had ever done because he was a DP, camera operator, a set designer and he can draw. He would tell them what was wrong with their shots and why and they couldn’t argue because he knows his stuff. They had to be on their A-Game at all times. They said working with a director who has little technical experience is much easier because they can pretty much put up anything and it gets approved. I think the same holds true across all departments. Ridley also said he loves the Red cameras because shooting on them “is like having terrific eyesight”.

  • The month of July is near and STILL no footage. This is some kind of a joke.

  • FWIW, this week is/was the CE (Consumer Electronics) week in NYC. Among the announcements were a bunch of new 4K TV models (Samsung, Sharp, Toshiba), some allegedly awesome upres (SD, 1080p into 4K) chips from Marceille Networks (incorporated into Toshibas but available as an off-the-shelf product as well). Tosh 58″ has the MSRP of $5K, Sharp’s 70″ is $8K, their 32″ pro monitor is ~ $6K and Samsung’s 55″ curved (!) OLED is $13K. Also, on a semi-related topic, Netflix is streaming what they call SuperHD – a 7 MB/s H.264 broadcast. Early revues compare it roughly with the BlueRay quality disc.

    • And when buy your new, expensive “4K” TV / panel it will useless from the start.

      Why ?

      Because HDMI 1.4 SUCKS when it comes to “4K”. Weak 24p / 30p with 8-bit per component MAX is not exactly state of art in less than one year. At that time the new HDMI 2.0 will come out, with full 50p / 60p “4K” support and your one year old panel is done.

      Only thing that really avoids this, is the new super expensive 85 inch “4K” Samsung, that has seperate connection box you can remove and upgrade with HDMI 2.0 connectios (or something similar).

      For example new Sony “4K” TVs do NOT support this.

      BTW, I just spend literally few hours staring at the new 85 inch Samsung and 65 inch Sony.

      The upgrade from 1080P to “4″ is really minimal. Actually so minimal, that if you have seen any decent 1080P material with decent 1080P panel, “4K” stuff with 65/55 panels is just plain boring and pathetic.

      • Well, then you need to tell Apple not to bother with their new technologies because their “retina display” in 20″-27″ sizes is much sharper than 4K on a 65/55 inch screen. In fact, both Samsung and Apple are approaching the stipulated 300 PPI, whereas a 65″ 4K is closer to 70. Which means that a TV of that size can easily handle 8K before the human limits set in.

    • Some 4k tvs made in both China and Japan have a lower priced than these. Either those lower prices will force other companies to lower their prices or those other companies are going to squeeze those lower price companies out of America. I hope the former. I fear the latter.

  • Hisense 110″ 4k LED tv available in America around September, projected price, for now, under $15,000.00. Looks like WalMart will be selling it.

  • Review of Hisense products, including the 110″ 4k tv—runs Android OS, full Smart capability, built in web cam, motion control, and voice recognition, again, the 110″ 4k tv projected to be under $15,000.00:

  • I don’t know if any of you super film makers know what the most expensive tool is on a picture… give up? its a pencil; and if brothers if you can’t write you ain’t dick.