November 8, 2012

Where is the Blackmagic Cinema Camera? Another Shipping Update from the CEO

The camera was one of the biggest surprises at NAB this year -- a RAW shooting video camera for under $5,000 that used standard SSD drives for storage. The company planned on rolling them out by late July/early August, but one delay pushed that back until later in August, and another until September. A new camera model was even introduced with a Micro 4/3 mount. We were updated on the issues each time there was a serious delay, but now we're into November. It's been a frustrating few months for the team at Blackmagic, but the CEO, Grant Petty, has taken the time to give us a full and complete answer about the current status.

The major issue the team originally faced was explained back in September, and basically the glass covering bonded to the sensor was contaminated from packing materials. That company's testing software was not finding these issues and so the sensors were getting shipped to Blackmagic with the supplier thinking they were 100% free of defects, when in fact, the sensors were completely useless. Now it seems the issue was not resolved at that time, and is quite a bit more complicated than just an error in testing. Even after the supplier supposedly fixed the issue with their quality control, Blackmagic was still getting bad sensors, so they sent in their engineers to figure it out for themselves.

The full message from Grant Petty is available in the Blackmagic forum, but here is a slightly shorter version describing the current issue:

What we found when investigating their processes was quite surprising. Of course we had known the original problem with their quality control checks was their test software had not been modified for color sensors. In the past their sensors were used for scientific use and used in black and white. Also their glass was never used as other customers bonded the lens optics onto the sensor itself. In our case we use the sensor in a conventional way and the customers change lenses. We need the glass on the sensor like all other cameras do.

Also, they had never built a camera using the sensor they make for us. We are the only camera that’s used this sensor and glass combination. It's like designing and building cars but no one at the company has every driven one.

So it turns out their quality process is really only good at testing the semiconductor die. It's no good at testing the quality of the overall sensor product with the glass in front. This meant they could not even see the problems we were seeing, so that’s why we were getting bad parts. We sent them the information on how to build our test setup and yesterday they started testing using it. Now they are seeing the same quality problems we are seeing. This is good as it means we should not get any more bad sensors.

The problem left is that out of a test batch of 30 sensors, only 4 worked well enough so we can build cameras using them. This is bad. So while the good news is they can now see the same problems we see, the question is why is there still contamination on the glass.

The reason is the contaminated glass issue in many ways distracted them from the problems their manufacturer is having bonding the glass to the sensor itself. The sensor supplier now has two sources of glass, and both of them are showing the same problems. The parts without glass are ok, and the problems appear when the glass is bonded to the sensor. If the glass is clean then it's really the company bonding on the glass that are introducing contamination.

This is the current plan for fixing the issue and letting users know when they might be getting a camera:

The sensor supplier is getting some new sensors made at the original supplier, which we should get test data back on late this week. Once we see this we will know if the original supplier can make the parts without contamination and so we can start building cameras again. I don't know why they changed glass bonding companies.

So the current plan is to get some sensors from the original glass bonding company and based on their upgraded testing we should know more at the end of the week if we are going to get a good supply of sensors starting to ship using that new company.

I will let you all know later this week or early next when we get some of these sensors to build cameras with and will know if we can start production full speed again.

Lastly, please take it easy on our PR folks. They want more regular updates and it’s me personally that are stopping that, because I don't want to do fluff updates that don't say anything and I don't want to lie to people.

So the issue is complicated and more involved than it first seems, and just like any company building a camera for the first time (like RED), there are going to be serious issues with manufacturing. While that may not be comforting to people who pre-ordered a camera in April, there isn't much that can be done about the situation that the company isn't already working on. The advantage that a company like Sony or Canon has is that not only have they been doing this a long time, but they are deeply involved in the fabricating of the senors, so they can fix these problems relatively quickly. Since Blackmagic is buying these sensors, there wasn't a lot that they could do at the time when the original problems cropped up.

If you've pre-ordered a camera, the news is frustrating, and depending on the backorder number, it might be a while before you get a camera. Even though some users are getting cameras, it's because they are actually able to build a few that pass their quality control, but the vast majority of the sensors have been useless. I won't venture a guess about when you might be able to get a camera at the moment, but as Grant says, if the situation has been corrected, we should know relatively soon when these cameras can start shipping in volume.

Link: Camera Shipping Update: 11/7 -- Blackmagic Forum

Your Comment

104 Comments

I appreciate BMD's open communication about this, though it has felt more like buyers are backing an expensive Kickstarter project than pre-ordering from an established company.

November 8, 2012

-1
Reply
David S.

if you kickstarted a camera..*cough* i mean preordered a camera.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
CLS

No one should have had to pay any money for a pre-order, and if you did, that money is going to the reseller, not to the manufacturer.

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

true, i didnt pre-order... anyway, moving on. im sure the guys at red are having a field day.

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
CLS

Great attempt guys but the execution was poor. Shouldn't have set a release date until you had the camera's all ready to go in your hands. I cancelled my BMCC pre-order the other day and gave it to RED.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

I'm pretty sure a lot of other people have either already done the same or will in the near future... well as long as those Red Ones stay in stock of course... which would be till early next week or something. Especially after this news.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Andreas Kopriva

Well its better than shipping them and then they go back....

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
marklondon

I imagine every company that manufactures camera's at this level and higher all have to go through the same kinda of things. The only difference is that with say Sony for instance, you will never hear about it as they do all of the manufacturing in house and sort all the issues out before they announce a new camera like the F5/F55.

I feel for BMD and it will get sorted, but at no point should a camera delay stop a project. If the camera you want isn't available get the one that is. Or rent. A camera isn't going to make your script any better and the audience isn't going to know what you didn't get because you missed out on some extra resolution or latitude. Stop making excuses and just go make your shit, because guess what, there will be a newer better cheaper camera out next year...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Allan

You're right - it shouldn't delay a project... however there's that small issue of there not really being another camera with those specs at that price point :) (Battle-tested Red Ones sold in limited availability notwithstanding)

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Andreas Kopriva

BT R1's would still end up costing you double the BMCC once rigged to shoot.
The used R1's aren't 4k for $4K they are 4K for $4K +$4K in accessories.

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
AdRath

Sigh.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

I feel that.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
avatar
Dave Kendricken
Writer
Freelancer

I know that feel bro

November 8, 2012

-1
Reply
Austin Mace

What are you sighing about Luke? You're already shooting on RED!

November 8, 2012

-1
Reply

I'm surprised there aren't the same level of complaints about this camera and "Vaporware" claims like there were with RED...though I suppose Blackmagic is somewhat more established than RED was when they started...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

I think the camera will come out as it is or better at the end of the day (say sometimes around May or June 2013). The only issue here is there could be other camera coming out already by then which could have taken BMCC place and no one will be interested or paying anymore money for the BMCC. They will miss the "boat".

Imagine Scarlet has dropped its price to USD 6k about the time BMCC is really shipping out? Do you think anyone will still be interested? Unless BMCC is USD 2K at that time.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

No point in this camera when you can get a red mx for 4,000...

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
john jeffreys

ZING!!

November 8, 2012

-1
Reply
Austin Mace

I can think of plenty points to go BMCC. Also can also think of good reasons to get the RED.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Clayton Arnall

but my problem is, you cannot get a RED for $4k. Lens mount, monitor & power alone is another $3k unless I can find used 3rd party. And then the warranty issues as well come into play.

But help me out, I will jump ship if the numbers work out.

Oh, and I only have Canon glass. That is hurting me too...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

RED ONE accessories are dirt cheap and all over ebay/internet because the camera has been out shooting daily for almost, what, 5 years I think.

The cheapest config would be body, 48GB redmag (or CF if you have the cf module and red cards), 200 dollar lcd monitor, v mount battery and plate (and charger), and a dovetail/mounting thing. Rent the tripod, lenses, and follow focus units. Slap a nikon mount on there (i see them used for 1-250 all the time) and you are good to go with some nikkors. I'd say like 6 grand to get it going, and thats 4.5k res, 120fps 2k, raw codec

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
john jeffreys

Actually if a guy is up for it you could still lower the cost by getting second hand RED Drives.
Probably what I'm gonna do.

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
Raphael Wood

John is right. You do have to spend, but people are overstating how much you "HAVE" to spend.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Lliam

Exactly. A BMCC is gonna take a lot too. That screen is too dim to use, so you still need an external monitor, you still need v-mounts...you still need media (that is cheaper, true, but it's version of RAW is uncompressed, so it isn't even saving you much money.

November 18, 2012

1
Reply
Daniel Mimura

Because for 4000 you can get this camera and it will shoot. Add another 10k to get the RED up and running.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
pat

Between the 5inch monitor and the 48gb Red Mag. You can get a red setup for 6,325. Twice the camera for twice the cost.

November 8, 2012

-2
Reply

Um ... are you powering it on magic fairy dust for free? And with your guns arm cannons are you shooting hand held.

Im no popeye, so that will be at 1,000 for a 30lbs max load tripod.

And you can get a ac adapter for $125. I hope you're only shooting in your living room.

FOR THE LAST TIME IS 4K FOR AT LEAST $8K

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
ian

LOL, thanks for bringing us back to the ground. Truth is if you can afford a Red, waste no time, go for it. For the rest of us, we have no alternative but to wait until this baby is born.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Bobcat

Bobcat, very well put!! 8K is still a great price for a $25k camera. Unfortunately my budget is $5k, so hurry up baby Alexa!

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
ian

Same argument goes for the BMCC, kids. You need a ton of rigging, adapters, lenses, SSD's, lots of things to get that thing running comfortably. And when thats all said and done, you'll have to deal with kiddie 2.5k res and 3493848549548x crop factor

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
john jeffreys

You do not need a ton of rigging, adapters, lenses, ssds for the BMCC to start shooting with it. Just slap on an ef lens and your good to go. Theres IS, and you can use any cheap monopod or teipod or stabilizer for stabilization. "Requiring" a rig for the BMCC is the biggest bullshit ever.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Quobetah

i love how you call people "kids". i saw you on REDuser saying you were hoping your parents would give you half of the money for a MX. HAHAHA. your the "kid", man. Hold old are?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88300-4K-for-4K&p=1091268#po...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
David

Let's move on. Seriously.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Learn to read, he clearly wrote "2,5 kiddy resolution", not calling names.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Natt

"Same argument goes for the BMCC, kids."

Just correcting you, not that I care about Jeffreys. All he does is troll.

November 8, 2012

-2
Reply
Raphael Wood

Nah. You only need a battery and an SSD. We seen it used handheld already. Lenses? it uses what most of us already have. SSDs? Very cheap compared to RED.

So I don't agree. The RED ONE MX is a great deal but it is not $4k.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

Though the transparency is pretty awesome of them, and not a lot of companies express their issues quite so openly, it's still quite lacklustre of them. It's a shame because they will probably lose a lot of potential buyers due to this.
Teething issues are to be expected but announcing, showing off, pricing, and allowing pre-orders for a camera for which the main component is produced by a company which apparently has no experience in creating those components is quite inexcusable in this day and age.
In other words, if you have never driven a car, don't try to build and sell one :)

November 8, 2012

-1
Reply
Andreas Kopriva

I think BMD is trying to do something, heretofore, unheard of in this field of industry.
Attempting to deliver to users an extraordinary imaging instrument for a fraction of the cost of the competition.
They should be applauded and this type of openness is truly commendable.
Be happy we have them and keep your poor-mouthing to a minimum, please.

November 8, 2012

-1
Reply
dixter

Ultimate fail.....we won't see this camera till next year IMO.....that 5D MKIII lower price looks good now.....smh....good luck with this dream

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Ced

Actually, Canon just raised the MAP on the Mk III.

It's a shame they didn't just release that 4:2:2 output firmware update now, instead of in 6 months. With the BMCC so far away from being available, the Mk III with 4:2:2 out wouldn't be a bad substitute.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Hummer

Growing pains for a small company at the consumers expense... all of his statements should have been addressed in R&D and QC BEFORE they went to market with the camera. I was looking forward to getting one of these but guess I'll be eyeing something else. Man, for the current owners that experience any warranty issues - good luck with BM's turnaround time as they are struggling to get these manufactured.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Cinepixtor

Well that's really the issue, it was impossible for them to have figured this out in R&D because the company that made the sensor changed who they used for the glass. They didn't experience these issues before when they were developing the camera since the other company was doing a good job. You can't really plan for volume issues if your small batches are working fine, and this was the case right up until shipping.

November 8, 2012

2
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Regardless of the circumstances, from a consumer standpoint - this whole experience is a great disappointment. To echo what others have said, it's playing out like a big kickstarter project -

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Cinepixtor

Read the entire post front Grant and unfortunately, what came to my mid is that the sensor company just is not used to, ready and set up for building & shipping en mass, sensors for a cinema camera. Their testing equipment was for BW images, their QC is lacking.

I'm just concerned they are the right fit. It is so frustrating since the sensor IS amazing. Blackmagic is an honest and good company with a great vision and heart - they will get this situated. For me, I'm a bit worried that even if my camera comes, it could have underlying issues since this is SO NEW for everyone involved.

I'm seriously thinking about the RED One, I just know accessories and lens mount is gonna be thousands more on top of the $4k. :(

*Maybe for our troubles BLackmagic will offer 60p??* jk...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

As others have mentioned, Red One accessories aren't that costly at this point - you'll probably be able to find them pretty cheap on ebay or on their forums (http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?69-RED-stuff-for-sale).
A friend just bought one (btw, general FYI - for Europe the price drops to 2800 GBP and €3500) and we were doing some calculations -
For Canon glass your only option at this point is the birger Red One mount which is quite costly so it would probably be better to invest in either Zeiss ZF.2 glass or cheap Nikon primes in combination with the Red Nikon Mount ($500).
You'd need a monitor solution, but from what I gather any HDMI or SDI monitor will do, and a battery solution - check out www.globalmediapro.com - go for the 160wh/R (compatible with Red cameras) which will give you around 2 hours of running time (the Red One draws around 80wh).
So as Gordon said - you're looking for something along the lines of 6500 total. But you're getting a mature product which at this point is tried and tested and is good enough for hollywood productions.
Furthermore, if you're Premiere Pro based, post production is a breeze at this point.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Andreas Kopriva

actually in europe its £3318. the $4000 is before tax and the charge you import on top of it. so its $5304 and another $3,000 at the bare minimum(nikkon mount,unless you wanna spend 20k plus for pl set. 3rd party, second hand eveything else) to get it up and running and i dont know if you could even turn up on set for that amount money spent on a package

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
andy

Sounds like sabotage...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Eric

I canceled my pre-order back in July: I came to my senses and figured it would be better to wait for an "unbiased" review. I'm still excited about that little cam, hoping the next gen be more ergonomic and while keeping that unbelievable low price.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
FabDex

Look - we can all still thank the BMC for one thing: waking everyone else up - RED included - to the increasing competitiveness of the market. No doubt in my mind that we now have a RED ONE for $4k because of the fervor this little camera set off earlier this year.

November 8, 2012

1
Reply
Hummer

I totally agree with you on this. I just hope that they will make it no matter how late because after that many will follow their suite.

November 8, 2012

1
Reply

That Red One for $4,000 is looking better and better.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

Also this sucks for people who were looking to write this purchase off for 2012 because you have to have the purchased equipment in your hands before the end of the year for it to be a write off. LAME.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

??? If you're running a business in the USA, there's no such thing as a *write-off* for a camera body... it's a capital equipment purchase, not a business expense. It gets amortized over several years. Take a class... a $3k purchase isn't gonna get you dick for tax savings.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Zan Shin

That's not quite true anymore, Section 179 was part of a stimulus act that made business purchases 100% tax deductible up to a certain amount. For 2012, it's $139,000. So if your business bought that much in equipment, the entire amount is tax deductible. After that amount there are limits to how much you can deduct.

http://www.section179.org

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Indeed. I wrote off 100% of my RED purchase in 2011.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
avatar
Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Joe, that is some really great info. How about NFS share some experience of dealing with taxes, etc., while working freelance? I know the state-side of this will vary, but I'm sure there is enough information that is true nationally.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
David S.

That would be a good post, definitely. We will certainly look into that as it can be a really frustrating and confusing situation for people - since the tax code is a bit ludicrous, especially for people who work for themselves.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Wheres Digital Bolex? I can't imagine what kind of problems they might be into as well.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Marcus

Actually, Digital Bolex also experiencing some problems and delays, but we hope to get the camera at the beginning of 2013.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

Where is the KINERAW???

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
vinceGortho

all these "new" cameras are failing......smh.....think i'll just stick with company's who do this as a standard

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Trinal

The one thing we can all hope for is they shitcan this supplier and move forward with their Super35 sensor cam for $4000.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Zan Shin

Where is Canon 1d-c???

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Moore

It's a good camera. It will be popular when it's in wider release.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Newman

Here's an interesting quote by Illyiah Freeman, President of Hot Rod Cameras about the BMCC's sensor :

"While an imaging sensor is not the only important component of a camera, it is certainly the heart. I have to say in the limited time I've played with, and watched the BMC Cameras images on the big screen next door (20' Barco 2K DI suite) the sensor is drop dead gorgeous. It blows every DSLR our of the water regardless of price, and surpasses many cameras costing thousands more. Hell, it matches the dynamic range of the Dalsa Evolution camera, in 2009 the undisputed king of dynamic range.

We know the BMC Camera sensor is on the bigger side, and it's got to be state-of-the-art complicated to get images like it does. I can only imagine the manufacturing hurdles that Blackmagic is tackling right now. I know one particular camera company that creates a custom software "masks" unique to every camera they sell. Those software masks hide all the manufacturing defects with their imaging sensors. Blackmagic clearly isn't doing that, and should be applauded for shipping "perfect" cameras slowly rather than flawed cameras with band-aids as fast as possible. "

Um, 1. Im now even more inlove with BMCC's sensor choice, cause yeah, its not about the sensor size..its its character/colorimetry taht is also of extreme importance. 2. Whi the heck is this large camera manufactureer making software "masks" to hide its sensor imperfections instead of trying to make perfect sensors loke what BMD is doing? I call Canon and their softy 5DMK3!

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Quobetah

It ain't the 5D3, quoquo. If there was a sensor problem on the 5D3, it would be seen on the 22MP stills, not the 2MP video. The 5D3 chose pixel binning with an aliasing-free implementation that requires sharpening in post, as everyone with a pulse now knows. But that has nothing to do with fudging readouts from a flawed sensor. The 5D3 sensor is likely as reliable as any in the mass market.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Peter

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Quobetah

Its really sad :(, by the time they start shipping, there are going to be better cameras with similar prices.
They should start adding new technology to this(still preproduction) model, so they wont be outdated by that time, or it will be pointless then

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Cris

well maybe my last sentence was a bit extreme, because it will still have amazing quality pictures. Hopefully if there is going to be harsh competition in 6m/1year from now, they should lower the price, if they dont ship by then, i dont know what then :D

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Cris

If only the Scarlet gave the same frame rate options as the Red one it wold be a f@cking slam dunk! At this point the only thing stopping me purchasing the R1 is the back breaking weight :-(

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Paul

The Red One had it's day in the sun when it came out. Now the camera is ancient, compared to what's coming.

Even though it's $4K, that's still $4K of your money.

What will you do with your Red One when Blackmagic comes out with a 4K camera in a year? Once the prices of sensors fall, so will the price of cameras.

The Red One won't be upgradeable or have a Thunderbolt port. It also won't be repairable. And you'll have pricey accessories to sell if you bail from Red.

It's smarter to hold out out the BMCC, especially once the firmware revisions start coming. There's also Sony and Canon which will have to respond with cheaper cameras. It's worth waiting.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

Have you ever worked with a RED MX? It's a great camera! It still has a good DR, skin tones and 4.5K with120fps at 2k... An S35 sensor! Let's not forget this.

Canon just released their cameras, Sony too... And they are NOT cheap. Red MX is still an awesome camera even for $8000 kittted... And that's the price of a FS700 naked, no lens... If you want to go 4K on the sony one... do the math... And it is still NOT raw.

I know, everyone has high hopes for BMCC but come on... this is not a comparisson between MKIII vs. BMCC... Things wouldn't be that easy for BMCC...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Alex Mand

You're absolutely right: the Red One is a great camera. And $4K gets you the bare essentials (minus a battery). Fully tricked out the investment would be around $8K (with monitor and batteries).

Is spending $8K for the Red One better than spending $14K on the Scarlet or $26K on the Epic? Is it really about $? Or features?

November 9, 2012

0
Reply

I think yes... Even if you upgrade scarlet to dragon, next year, this will cost you a minimum of $6k... I guess it will cost a little bit more... So let's say with shipping and extras you will need $7-8k. That's a lot money...

Sure Dragon will be something else but you still need a B-camera and MX is a fully capable one.

A good deal will be buying BMCC after a few months. The camera will be on the field. More rigs avaliable, battery solutions, lenses (MFT), updated firmware. Let's see...

But $4000 MX body is an insane deal. I ordered one and kitted for $8000, completed. Just waiting it comes now.

BMCC...Well, who knows?

November 12, 2012

0
Reply
Alex Mand

Actually thinking about it...given the scarlet is identical to the Epic in almost every aspect, you're really getting ripped off now when you compare frame rates vs cost. ie the Scarlet is 60% cheaper than an Epic so shouldn't you be getting somewhere in the vicinity of 60% less fps? That would mean frame rates as follows:

5k - 48 fps
4k - 60 fps
3k - 80 fps
2k - 120 fps

When you look at the above, the price on the Scarlet really should be around $6k. Given everything else accessories wise costs THE SAME as it does for Epic I really dont see the Scarlet as a viable Red purchase at its current price. Not when you will have thousands more operators running around out there with their $4k Red MX's capable of doing 3k at 60 fps and 2k at 120.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Paul

Once the Dragon sensor upgrade comes out for the Scarlet, the Red One will be worthless. It pays to invest in the Scarlet or Epic for this fact alone.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply

Worthless in what sense? I'm guessing that long after all image capture technology has been equalized and people like you have found something even more absurd to argue about, many of the movies shot on Red One, film, or any outmoded platform will still be worth watching.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
jime

you have no idea what it will cost or even if its possible to update the Scarlet to Dragon. It's clear that the Scarlet will need all new internals to operate with Dragon sensor which won't be cheap.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
AdRath

A camera that can shoot Pirates of The Carribean 4 and the Social Network will only be worthless in relation to the quality of the operator and project.

Who buys cameras for resale value? We buy them for what we can do with them don't we?. It shoots 4.5K for a true 4k delivery, has anamorphic mode and 120fps @2k? That won't be worthless for a long while.
4K for this camera is sheer lunacy.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Lliam

This was my feeling about it specifically and why I bought a R1MX. If it was good enough for The Social Network 2 yrs ago (shot longer ago than that with pre-release the pre-release version)...it means it's good enough for whatever low budget indie shit I shoot for...years. Years.

I own a 16mm camera...and that was a good camera that lasted me for years...as new film stocks came out...the same camera would be fine. Just buy new batteries and keep it in sound mechanical order...

Now, you've got Moore's law with the move to digital (the doubling of processor power every 2 years...)...so now it's "outdated"...but looking at it another way, it's still not. If we only now have 4k theaters in under 50% of theaters and it outputs 3.7k (4.5k debayered), it's getting pretty close to that threshold...and plenty of movies (such as Skyfall) are 2k movies uprezed and they're looking beautiful and Deakins was happy with the blow up to IMAX (real IMAX), so... completely skipping the resolution war...it doesn't matter. The fact is, it shoots without a ton of light 800ASA base level, and has a huge latitude (13+ stops, versus the 7 of the 7D and AF100 which I've been used to)...for all of $500 more than an AF100.

And now, with that threshold of 4k, as well as computers getting faster (red rocket still would be nice, but it's not absolutely necessary), as well as hard drive space getting cheaper...it's basically at some sort of threshold level that won't change much, yet the cost of the gear has still gone down significantly, so it's a bargin.

(I don't have the same issues with the extras, b/c I've got the V-Mounts and 30lb tripod...etc...b/c I'm coming from 16mm, so the only extra cost are the redmags and some mini-xlr to regular XLR adapters...I can already power it off my steadicam, as well as having DIN to HD-SDI converters from my hyperdeck shuttle.)

November 18, 2012

0
Reply
Daniel Mimura

Just took my cash and put it on a scarlet!!! I'm was losing money waiting on this camera.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Donnie King

Is it ok to criticise Black Magic for these delays now? Last time I did I had my head bitten off.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Peter Kelly

It's got to be frustrating if you've pre-ordered one, and yeah it might reason to look at other options if you need something right away, but that still doesn't make it blackmagic's fault. I'm sure they're just as frustrated as any customer as this is going to do nothing for business. But blaming them for the delays is like blaming car companies for drunk drivers

November 12, 2012

0
Reply
DP

I am blaming this all on BMD. They get a company to produced the first batch of glass/sensors, that went great.

They change companies and don't bother to do a background check on them? How did they choose these morons to make/assemble their sensors, when they didn't have the experience or capabilities to perform the necessary bench tests?

just add the glass to the sensor while hundreds of thousands of people wait for their camera.

Let me hire an axe murderer to baby sit children, no background check needed. Anyone who has been on preorder since July should receive a huge discount for putting up with this idiotic situation.

November 13, 2012

0
Reply
George

Well said. They blame the sensor manufacturer, but I blame them. This is their problem, no matter how much they want to blame an unnamed supplier.

November 18, 2012

0
Reply
Daniel Mimura

I'll stay skeptical. It always seemed a bit too amazing to believe.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Tw

Wow, You guys are seriously kind mean i guess is the word?
I get the frustration - but these guys are doing something for the first time and instead of jerking people around by sending out crap they're working to fix it and they're disclosing the issue - lot more than some might do in the same circumstance...

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Jer

I cancelled my BMCC pre-order today..

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Ugeen

All while RED is selling out battle-tested RED Ones for $4,000

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Fawzy

"Battletested"= refurbished junk with a macho name.

November 12, 2012

0
Reply
Jim

BM should just replace the sensors with larger APS-C sized sensors. Take it as an omen.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
vinceGortho

sploosh

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
shakezoolah

As to be expected, im not really surprised but im not angry or disappointed either. Im glad they were open about it, they may lose some customers but atleast some will admire their openness. Better out then in. Hope things go well these next few months.

November 8, 2012

0
Reply
Xiong

I got some hands-on time with one of these cameras at the Philip Bloom workshop... Trust me, its worth the wait.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply

This would have been a good time to have deisgned a B&W version that wouldn't get caught up in color sensor testing. Oh hindsight, you dog.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply

at the moment there is no other camera in this price range.
red one battle tested will run out soon, and the 4k extra tools needed for the red one makes it for me a no no.

altho of i will not receive the camera before februari (near NAB 2013) i will cancel my order

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
sico van der plas

SOOOOOOOOO can anyone add there two cents, does it make better sense to buy a MXONE or red scarlett in terms of price. I mean I know the ONE is now $4000, but i keep hearing from everyone that you will spend atleast another 4k to make it shootable because of size weight etc, so will it end up being cheaper to get the new scarlett.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Jayyyy

You'll have to spend more money kitting out a Scarlet than a Red One, not even counting the base price difference. The Scarlet's a lot more user friendly and less bulky though...and it has an upgrade path.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Gabe

Just bought a Battle Tested Scarlet X and I had to spend close to 3,500 in extras to get it going. I was considering the BT Red One but having the option to upgrade sensor in a couple months to 5 or 6k at 24p was the seller for me.

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Donnie King

AT least they are being honest and most importantly communicating with the consumers. I cant realistically see the cameras being logical enough to buy until next summer, because even if they start to ship cameras they will not have backups for replacements etc.

I think it may be a silver lining while they wait for sensor from QUALITY CONTRAOL staind point. I think what they should do is get in contact with ADOBE and Apple and focus on making a smoother workflow transition for when the cameras are truly ready to be shipped. Especially with all the talks coming from ADOBE these days, After effects may work for now but there should still be other viable options. Reds 4k can easily be edited now on CS6 OR FINAL CUT , i still believe in them, but anyone thinking that these things will be ready by FEB is holding their breath.

IN THE WORLD OF CAMERAS 1 MONTH equates to every 5 months

November 9, 2012

0
Reply
Jayyyy

Why do people moan about this?

Then say you can pick up a battle-tested red for $4,000 - ARE YOU IDIOTS? No you CAN'T! It costs about $4,000 in extras to get the bloody thing working! So that argument is automatically invalid - If you think about using this as an argument buy the Red camera and head-butt it repeatedly.

Think about what black magic are doing - For once you have a company that is LISTENING and RESPONDING personally to their audience - They're being honest and frank and explaining every step of the way.

This camera has the power to pave the way for some seriously innovative equipment.

Yeah - these delays are probably getting on your nerves if you've pre-ordered the BMCC but please, just think about what Black-magic are going through as well - their first release and theres this many problems and they're communicating honestly with their audience.
Be thankful for that.

November 10, 2012

0
Reply
David Dearlove

Naw.

November 10, 2012

0
Reply
vinceGortho

Thank you for screwing up so badly, Black-magic! My biggest misgivings about the camera were the small sensor and the fact that it eats hard drive space like a Hummer eats gas b/c the RAW is uncompressed.

I've needed a camera with a lot of latitude, as well as really wanting RAW...the BMCC was the only thing in the price range that delivered. I also wasn't looking forward to using a screen that is too dim to use outdoors---that uses a touch screen (I'm shooting wearing gloves a lot, and even without it, touch screens are too imprecise for critical camera work, IMO)...and that's also ignoring the weird unergonomic shape and the fact that the ports are dumbly located on the smart side. And that the histograms require you to plug into a laptop... It's a lot of things I had a problem with, but I was willing to put up with it for the sharpness, latitude and RAW... Well, b/c of BlackMagic failing and stalling...R1MX's went down to that same ballpark cost...so now I don't have to wait, and it's something a little more proven. Yeah, it has a minute long start up time...etc...but since it's at Build 30-something...it's mature...we more or less know what to expect from it at least.

Blackmagic failed and Red delivered.

I can't believe people are still apologizing for them, especially after the news that there is even longer to wait...all I see is blame and finger pointing (blaming sensor manufacturer and pointing that Red One took so long---this was a startup company, not an established one...)

November 18, 2012

0
Reply
Daniel Mimura

This just echoes the problem with the entire (almost entire if you want to get sensitive over one company) tech industry model. Step one: Design and move on to Step two: directly selling to the masses. From cellphones on down, consumers end up being the beta testers for these products and they make a new model based off of compliants from customers. It's stupid. Sell it for cheaper or give out the products to consumers to try in real world applications and see what bugs pop up.

December 17, 2012

0
Reply
Sammy