February 10, 2013

KineRAW-MINI Pre-Ordering Has Begun, Get a 2K RAW Super 35mm Camera for Just Over $3,000

This one came as a bit of a surprise back in January, and now it looks like pre-orders have already begun. The KineRAW-MINI, a new camera from Kinefinity, has an identical sensor to the KineRAW-S35 (which is shipping in China). However, it forgoes some of the fancier aspects of the larger S35 -- like Cineform and dual SSD slots -- to create a compact and much more affordable version. We've now got some preliminary pricing information that should make this a very, very interesting option when it starts shipping next month (likely in China first). Check out more details below.

First, check out some new photos of the camera (thanks to Cinescopophilia for the heads-up):

Here are the specs on the camera:

  • Super 35mm CMOS Sensor
  • 12-bit Uncompressed CinemaDNG (Cineform is optional to a recorder they don’t make yet)
  • 2048 x 1080 // 1920 x 1080 // 1280 x 720
  • One 2.5″ SSD Slot
  • ISO: 80-10,240 — Base of ISO 800
  • Dynamic Range: 11.5 Stops (up to 13 stops in log)
  • Electronic Canon or Interchangeable Kinefinity Mount
  • Monitoring: 720p with 2 HDMI Outputs
  • No Fan or Phantom Power Audio
  • Optional Handgrip with Battery
  • Power Consumption: 8-10 Watts
  • No On-board Monitor or LCD

Here are a couple photos of their order form. I've translated the document (using Google, with some changes to make it clearer), and converted the prices based on the current exchange rate between the Yuan and the Dollar:

We should keep in mind that these are the Chinese prices converted, so it's not clear yet if these will be the exact prices when the camera is made available internationally. There is also an $800 deposit for the camera (which is refundable), and the first 100 buyers get a discount.

As you can see above, the price of the body starts at a little over $3,000, but that includes just the "brain," very similar to RED's EPIC and SCARLET cameras (which it shares an uncomfortable resemblance to). To really get the camera working, it's going to cost another $1-$2,000 for media, batteries, and monitoring, but even at $5,000, a RAW Super 35mm 2K camera is pretty remarkable, especially since all you can find in this price range are 8-bit 4:2:0 1080p cameras. They are also offering package deals which get you started in terms of power and SSDs -- the most expensive of which is still under $6,000. While the MINI can take off-the-shelf SSDs, you are guaranteed not to have any dropped frames with the speedy KineMAGs.

In my last post I said where I thought this camera would fit in, especially at the prices above, and I think the only obstacle going forward will be support in the US. As of right now they don't have any distributors or repair facilities here, so the camera would need to be sent back to China. With these low prices though, I think that situation could change much sooner.

There have been many complaints about the Blackmagic Cinema Camera not having a larger sensor (it's a little smaller than Micro 4/3), but they made that compromise for overall image quality. The Cinema Camera has more dynamic range (Update: it may still have more, but Kinefinity's documentation has changed for the S35 camera to only list log dynamic range which puts it at 13 stops. We'll have to wait and see if anything changes for the MINI camera, as their original specification listed 11.5 and 13 in log), which is clear from the samples of the KineRAW that I've seen so far, and Blackmagic's sensor may actually resolve a higher resolution image thanks to the pixel-binning down to 2K on Kinefinity's 4K sensor. The one advantage the Kinefinity sensor has besides its physical size is that it can go all the way up to 10,240 ISO.

It also shares one major feature with the Cinema Camera: uncompressed CinemaDNG. While these clips should be a little bit smaller since it's 2K or 1080p as opposed to 2.5K, uncompressed RAW makes for some very large files (as we talked about in this post). It's the price you pay for a cheaper camera. They do plan on making a Cineform recorder which would give you compressed RAW with the MINI, but it's unclear if the product listed above with that name is actually the recorder or is the cost of the Cineform software itself that allows you to convert in post.

RAW cameras are now within reach for almost any filmmaker -- the MINI makes the 3rd available for under $5,000 -- but RAW has its own workflow hoops that one must jump through in order to get to a final product. CinemaDNG is an open codec, but it's not NLE-friendly, so it's a bit more complicated than just bringing your footage into your editor and cutting away. As computers get faster and CinemaDNG gets broad NLE support, this will be a non-issue -- but we're not quite there just yet.

We should get more information on international shipping for both of Kinefinity's cameras as the company is expected to be at NAB.

What do you think of the price? How do you think this compares with the Digital Bolex and the Blackmagic Cinema Camera (which are all around the same price)?

Links:

[via Cinescopophilia]

Your Comment

121 Comments

as much as i want a raw camera today. this just doesnt seem better than a bmc mft. to me, DR is one of the most important things at the moment. once i finally get the bmc mft ill probably be drooling on red dragon.
one great things about the bmc is that 5in monitor, you can really go run and gun if you really want to.

February 10, 2013

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vcrd

I think the best thing about this is the 35mm sensor. That means if I was to say upgrade in the future I wouldn't be stuck with super wide primes.

February 11, 2013

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Tyler

S35 Sensor, PL Mount, Mount is interchangeable with Canon & Nikon F, & RAW

February 11, 2013

1
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Jon7athan

Like Jon wrote, I'd say there're three major advantages to using this camera instead of its closest competitors, the Blackmagic Cinema Camera and Digital Bolex:
- Sensor size
- High ISO flexibility
- Interchangeable lens mounts (though the base mount may be proprietary)

February 11, 2013

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Blah

"Sensor size" - why people still play this card is beyond me. I'd shoot on a 1/2" sensor if it gave me more dynamic-range than a S35 sensor. What's the point of having a large sensor if it can't deliver good dynamic-range? I've shot a lot of 16mm film, a lot of Alexa, and recently got to take the BMCC out for a spin - I shit you not, the BMCC looks so close to Alexa (plus having the grain extremely similar to film) that it's ridiculous. I saw the KineRAW footage shot by that Matt guy, no offence, but it looked awful - the dynamic-range was really off putting.

Add the BMCC's dynamic-range (which is more than a RED Epic/Scarlet even, which I'd rate around 11 - 11.5 stops) together with Blackmagic's color-science, and it not only trumps the KineRAW cameras, but is so indistinguishable from Alexa that I'm still in shock.

Also, the KineRAW might say "11.5 stops" on paper, but from what I have seen, I'd say it's getting around 10 - if that. The thing with the BMCC is, I think it's dynamic-range rating is spot on. I'm sure Blackmagic could have marketed it as "15 stops of dynamic-range", but they come across as a very honest company - when they say 13 stops, you're getting 13 stops.

February 11, 2013

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Voltaire

You spec-tards are not understanding that the sensor size of the BMCC is it's fatal flaw not because of the sensor itself, but because NO LENSES EVEN COVER IT WITHOUT INSANE CROP FACTORS OR VIGNETTING. It seriously limits what glass you can use, and you are limited to crappy variable aperture wide angle zooms (canon or nikon) and the tokina 11-16. Unless you like shooting at focal lengths greater than or equal to 60mm lol

February 11, 2013

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john jeffreys

@JJ , Lol, you out of your mind, I mostly shot with Scarlet using the lenses: 24, 35, 50, 85, if I want to have FOV on a BMC I'd need 17, 25, 35, 60, not hard to find at all, some even match my current set of lens, please do your homework.

February 11, 2013

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Marcus

also remember that shooting raw is a lot of data. TBs of stuff. I like the ability to shoot pro res or avid dnxhd on the BMC - that with the Speedbooster makes the camera make a lot of sense.

February 11, 2013

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Ed David

'Spec tards' , oh my lord that's funny. I've never posted here before but long time reader. Spec tards, hehehehehe

February 11, 2013

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Robert

This.

February 12, 2013

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Mark

I think the best thing about this camera is that it is shipping. BMCC is still practically vaporware.

February 11, 2013

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Damon

I think you've got that backwards. The Kineraw mini is not shipping, and the BMCC is.

February 11, 2013

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Ant

Exactly. Tons of people have their BMC and they are shipping quite a few now each week. VImeo is loaded with BMC footage from users around the world. It's already shipped, the wait is over. Now it just has to ramp up production to what we're use to with Canon etc. But it's understandable they're not available in those kind of quantities yet.

The KiniRaw is actually not even a real product at this point. Those are only renders, not an actual pics. It's more vaporware than a BMC but less than the Bolex. Just sittin right there in the middle in terms of a tangible product that can be used.

February 14, 2013

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James

is this complain not moot now that there is the speed booster? making it a 35mm sensor with 1 more stop of light?

February 11, 2013

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kevin

Give Blackmagic a year and we may see a 35 sensor.

February 11, 2013

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Mark

A year is too late and who knows what these guys will have next when BM does get round to it.

February 11, 2013

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Tyler

its taken them a year to ship a camera so i wouldnt have so much confidence!

February 11, 2013

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Peter Kelly

Camera was announced April of last year and was supposed to originally ship in July of last year. They're 6 months and change late with a wide release. As someone who pre-ordered on the day the camera was announced; I'll say that it's been a long wait, but it hasn't been a year at all...

February 11, 2013

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A year is too late.
The time is yesterday.

February 11, 2013

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vinceGortho

Very interesting. We need Dan at DSLRnewsshooter to put up more of what he's shot with that sensor. I've found KineRAW only ok to deal with so far. They were a bit overwhelmed last time I spoke to them. The Movcam rigs they have look great too.
We're going to see a lot more product out of these guys (and China in general). Bring it on.

February 11, 2013

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marklondon

Now, although I do love competition, and I do like the supposed shipping date of (in a month), this camera for some reason just doesn't feel right. The Blackmagic Camera has support of an industry leader in post production technology. The Digital Bolex has support of a rabid and supportive fanbase and has worked in and improved the camera based on suggestions from its supporters.

This new cheaper Kinefinity RAW camera seems to just -exist-. It also feels like a knockoff of RED.

I have a feeling that RED will soon come out with something to counter these new "upstart" cameras. If RED came out with the (previously hinted at) 3k for $3k, or even a 3k that resolved down to 2k (for $3k), it could still sell it's incredibly overpriced accessories and media and make a nice profit. It would also get students trained, ready and used to working with RED when they want to step up to DRAGON (and beyond) for their pro projects/jobs.

But once again, competition is a wonderful thing... I'd just rather spend my money on a BMCC or a Digital Bolex.

February 11, 2013

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some guy

3k for $3k wasn't something hinted at, it was something announced and promised and then they failed to deliver (charging $12k instead). Don't hold your breath.

February 11, 2013

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Ant

Jim said the future is 4k and nothing less. I have to agree don't hold your breath for 3k camera from RED. Also I bought the scarlet and sold it within a couple months. Their work flow is garbage. I am happy to see there is more cameras coming out in this price range. It will give us variety and the ability to pick the right camera for each job. I suggest not to invest in cameras and invest in high quality lenses.

February 12, 2013

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jack

I'd rather get a BMC as well. Maybe I'm the only one, but I really do like the image from the BMC the best. If both cameras kitted out with everything needed to shoot were at the same price point, I'd still go for the BMC without hesitation. The image is exactly what I desire for narrative films, it has that Alexa vibe and the most filmic image out of the current crop of affordable raw cameras.

The epic would be absolutely incredible no doubt, and in terms of feature set and quality, it probably surpasses the BMC by some orders of magnitude... but at the end of the day, I'm going with the sexiest image.

February 14, 2013

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James

We ask for cameras like the Kinefinity. When they finally come, we push them away.

February 11, 2013

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Soosan Khanoom

Yea truly spoiled.

February 11, 2013

2
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agreed

February 11, 2013

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francis

not pushing away. competition is great, but im not a rich guy, i need to buy the best my money can buy. nothing wrong with analyzing the options right???

February 11, 2013

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vcrd

Not pushing away. I don't have to embrace every new camera that comes out. I'm a fan of the BMCC, and I like the D-Bolex, but the KineRaw-mini just doesn't seem to have its act together. It really seems if someone stuck a S35mm sensor in a box, and did the absolute minimum to bring it to market.

The standard version runs $4,100. Still, not a bad deal, and yes, it's S35, But for the same price you can get either the BMCC or the D-Bolex and at least two 512GB SSD cards.

Love competition :)

February 11, 2013

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some guy

It seems they put a lot of thought into it. The cineform option and the large sensor make it very interesting.

February 11, 2013

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This is humorous. If you look at the pro version it comes with 2x 64gb mags. So you can't really complain about memory. Also you complain about a sensor being shove in a box. Guess what that is what RED did and Oh wait, so did BMC. Gasp! do I see a trend? I

February 12, 2013

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jack

Agree with Soosan.

February 11, 2013

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hansd

its called having an opinion. thats what happens with a brain :)

February 11, 2013

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vcrd

Add the speed booster to the BMC and you solve the need for fast wides. That leaves only the rolling shutter as an issue for me. If Kinefinity can do well there they could make a decent impact.

This year is looking more exciting than even 2011 when all the big chip cheaper cams first started coming out. :)

February 11, 2013

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Nate

This looks awesome but I'm a Canon fanboy ;-P (I'm invested in the EF mount, take a lot of photos too and don't have the money for sperate video and photo cameras) so I see this and think "Come on Canon, where is my 7D C you jerks!" hopefully more stuff like the Kinefinity and a Super35 BMCC for $3k with give them the kick in the a** they need.

February 11, 2013

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P337

Canon will never bring out a raw camera at this price point. They have extremely popular cameras at much higher prices that are much more limited.

February 11, 2013

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Ant

Hey "filmmisers" no more excuses, s35 RAW is here.

February 11, 2013

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ryan

These is good but still not something that I see myself using. Im not picky but I think the camera that will blow everyone's mind is going to be something that has a 5K sensor that down samples to 4K and shoots Cineform and I believe that company who will make it will be GoPro.

February 11, 2013

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Russell

I think you may be right, Russell.

February 11, 2013

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I would like to see that myself, makes a lot of sense.

February 11, 2013

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I played with the kineraw s35 here in Sydney and the rolling shutter was like nothing I have ever seen. 35mm lens, fastish pan unusable. But if they sort that out ill buy one!

February 11, 2013

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mikki young

even worse than the rolling shutter of the bmcc?

February 11, 2013

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gerald

Yeah yeah competition blah blah but as filmmakers what we need is competitiveness on QUALITY not on SPECS.

11.5 stops dynamic range(probably closer to 10 and a bit real world shooting) is not going to cut it for the hassle of wrangling 12bit uncompressed raw dng's. Sorry but that's where the BMCC comes up trumps, not to mention the out of the box option of shooting damn fine looking pro-res or dnxhd.

Also the Kineraw isnt in the shops, not even close. Its at the pre-order stage...who's to say you wont be waiting another 6 months to a year for it to finally ship.

PASS

February 11, 2013

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Peter

true.

February 11, 2013

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vcrd

you mean like the BMCC?

February 11, 2013

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Marc

Its cool having a S35 raw camera BUT is this cameras colour science as good as my BMCC? Skin tones? highlight roll off? These are more important to me.

February 11, 2013

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Lee

Dynamic range is 13 stops in EI mode

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

That's interesting. Would love some files to test out that has been shot in that mode.

February 11, 2013

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I think we all missed that in the spec sheets. Joe would've most definitely mentioned it. You're correct, it says 13 stops in EI mode: http://www.dslrnewsshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/BAgQf48CQAAJtY...

February 11, 2013

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Yeah I must have missed it, now on their site the specifications lists 13 stops, nothing else (but their documentation still mentions both 11.5 and 13 stops). So they could have been listing linear gamma which is probably at 11.5 as they originally stated. I adjusted that above, but it's a little confusing since they don't have any specs for the MINI yet.

February 11, 2013

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avatar
Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

KineRAW S35 and KineRAW-Mini shares the same sensor, just some difference in processing power and recording features.

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

I understand that, but the documentation makes it seem like KineLOG is only available in Cineform, so that's why it is confusing.

February 11, 2013

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Yes KineLOG is only available in Cineform option to record the full dynamic range in a compressed format. KineRAW mini can only record 12bit CinemaDNG RAW hence no need for LOG curve.

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

Joe, here you can find a KineRAW DR test result based on Xyla-21 dynamic range chart. http://www.filmaker.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=25162

February 12, 2013

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Jason

That looks much, much better than the early samples I saw of the camera.

February 12, 2013

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

What does this mode mean? Is it Raw?

February 11, 2013

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arturo sanchez

I don't know but it seems like a Log mode of some sort.

February 11, 2013

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EI mode means Exposure Index, Google is your friend :)

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

Thanks for the info! Google is a friend but he kept telling me "Emotional Intelligence" I figured that wasn't right.

February 11, 2013

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Now that a cheap S35 RAW camera that can shoot Cineform comes along, suddenly the BMCC is better because of dynamic range, color science, highlight rolloff, resolution etc. Nothing is ever good enough.

February 11, 2013

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quobetah

Many experts say the BMC RAW needs 2.5K to get to true 1920 x 1080 resolution. If this starts at 2K RAW I expect it will have final resolution somewhere between 720p and 1080p?

I don't like the extras's approach Just sell a camera that has all the bits to make it work.. It seems a good deal untill you add in extras PLUS 20% VAT Here in the UK and postage.

.After the problems BMC had with its sensors which were probably sourced from china I would guess, I'd be worried about quality control..

What is annoying is it would be easy for a Japanese company to adapt omething like an EX1 body to pump out RAW along with a recorder . In fact a prores option and 50mbs codec for about £8000 But prefer not to.

Many will say this is cheap. But is it? Especially with the higher cost of peripherals. Black Magic's business plan is a lot more consumer friendly I think. Although I love the idea of this camera its already not as good as the BMC which comes with a lot of free extras Higher resolution 2 SSD bays Prores and a screen. .I will watch the Kineraw with interest but so far I am not that enthralled by the business plan.

February 11, 2013

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KineRAW has a 4K CMOS sensor, 2K comes from proper downsampling, it's sharp and clean 2K.

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

Right Thanks Marvin That makes it a bit more interesting!

February 11, 2013

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Their spokesperson stated it was pixel-binned to 2K in an interview a while back.

February 11, 2013

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

I think what Marvin said is correct. BTW Joe I happen to be close to that spokesman and I will have him clarified that in person.

February 12, 2013

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Jason

Seriously are you people REALLY whining about this now? This has to be the most self entitled, lazy generation there is.

If you've already been shooting w/ DSLRs for the past few years, then you should ALREADY have a rig and proper monitor solutions to make this camera work for you. That's why it's set as it is, a brain in a box.

People want something, whine and complain about it, then when it comes along, they whine and complain about that. I'm not even sure over half of you even shoot anything most of the time. Just sit on the web to bitch and moan about tech you'll never own.

February 11, 2013

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You are so right...It's true that his camera lack some thing, but in true honesty, What camera doesn't? I'm sure that every single camera announced in this or other blog, no matter what brand, price-point or kind or camera it is, it gets lots of hate... I'm still shooting with Canon DSLR's from the first video gen and getting really good results, and I'll kill to get this camera, come on people! it's S35-2k-Raw for 3k!! If we have been working around the flaws of the DSLR 'cos de more "Pro" cameras are out of our reach, now we have this for the S35 chip size! Remember that when you're on a budget, Size does matter! I'm really exited to see how the ISO 10.240...

February 11, 2013

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VictorQC

ahaha, didn't finish the post... I'm really excited to see how the ISO 10.240 looks like...

February 11, 2013

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VictorQC

The website badly works. The KineRaw-S16 and KineRaw-S8 tabs doesn't work and, when you click on buy, they ask to contact them and (guess what?) you're redirect to a blank page. Some programmer forgot the "localhost" there instead of the actual "http://www.kineraw.com". So, if you replace it, it works.

I mean, is not because it's chinese (although they live up for their reputation), but I think better wait someone get the camera in hands to see it works. Until them, BMCC is my first option. I just hope it arrives BEFORE Digital Bolex...

February 11, 2013

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Rodrigo Molinsky

KineRAW prioritise sales in China, until the demand is met, they will start taking orders from abroad

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

Anyway, they could at least fix the website.

February 11, 2013

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Rodrigo Molinsky

Apologies for that, the Chinese version is working fine, maybe you can use Google Translate

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

February 11, 2013

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Su

Exposure info: ISO1280, F2.8, shutter 1/24

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

Funny.
I just watched a news program discussing the real threat of Chinese hacking attacks.
They called it "The new cold war".

February 11, 2013

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Jeff

So, basically, it's not a 2K camera for $3000, since you need a lot of extra stuff to get it up to real-life shooting shape. Blackmagic still seems to be the best low-cost/quality option. And apparently, it's shipping. Still can't shake the feeling that GoPro will launch an amazing camcorder at the next NAB. I truly wish they do.

February 11, 2013

1
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FabDex

Well the BlackMagic Camera isn't exactly 3k out of the box either.

February 11, 2013

1
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Grant

If it's true that KineLog gives you extra DR (around 12-13) I think this camera will be a monster. Someone needs to provide footage for each mode and let the community have a go at it.

February 11, 2013

1
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See link above posted by Su, there are 3 frames of CinemaDNG files shot at night

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

N.K., you gotta play with these DNG files shot by Kineraw and everything will be clear. Here's the download link http://pan.baidu.com/share/link?shareid=200155&uk=1379173034

February 12, 2013

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Jason

Yep. Grabbed them and gave them a go. I'm impressed. I think this camera if they can get some support in the US will be a monster.

February 12, 2013

1
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Just a note on the article. Joe claimed the black magic sensor is larger than Micro 4/3, It isn't it is actially significantly smaller than MFT. with a 2.7x crop as opposed to MFT 2.0x from Still photo full frame.

February 11, 2013

1
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SD

Sorry that's what I meant, but it's a 2.3 crop, a 2.7 crop.

February 11, 2013

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

It's x2.3 crop, and x1.63 crop with a Speed Booster.

February 11, 2013

1
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Voltaire

But kineRAW mini with speedbooster means optional full frame.

February 11, 2013

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vinceGortho

I'm more interested in whether the Cineform recorder mentioned in the article will work with the BMCC.

February 11, 2013

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It would not because the Cinema Camera doesnt send out its RAW signal through any of the ports, just compresswd 1080p

February 11, 2013

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

I looooove China. Should've called the camera Dejavu instead xD

February 11, 2013

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Natt

Is it just me or this camera body kindda looks like the Scarlet?

February 11, 2013

1
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Marcus

Any word on framerates?

February 11, 2013

1
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2048x1080@23.976p, 24p, 25p, (short duration 50p upgrade planned)

1920x1080@23.976p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p, 30p, (short duration 50p upgrade planned)

1280x720@47.952p, 48p, 50p, 59.94p, 60p, (short duration 90p upgrade planned)

1024x576@96p

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

edit: missed 2048x1080@30p

February 11, 2013

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Marvin

Few Q's:

1 - rough estimate, what would be short duration? 10 sec? 20 sec? More?
2 - would the higher frames also be planned for the Kinefinity with Cineform?

If the picture quality is improved to be more pleasing like BMCC / alexa and it indeed has 13 stops the addition of higher frame rates is interesting. I still think the kinefinity / cineform combo represents the best option so hopefully some more light is shed on cineform field recorder for the mini.

February 11, 2013

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Peter

1. Not sure, my guess would be less than 1min.

2. Yes, Cineform option has the same framerates as CinemaDNG

February 12, 2013

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Marvin

Peter, 5 seconds to my guess

February 12, 2013

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Jason

I'd go with a BMCC MFT model with Metabones adapter before buying one of these.

February 11, 2013

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Marc B.

I wasn't impressed with the footage from this camera or the digital bolex. Both have their markets though.

February 11, 2013

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Reply

Sorry my friends but I don't want a "poor people Epic" for a discount price with discounts functionalities.

I want an Epic for half the price.

When I will see that, I will be happy, not before.

February 11, 2013

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Frenchy

@john jeffreys

You obviously prefer to troll rather than keep up-to-date with developments.

BMCC + Speed Booster gives it the crop-factor of an APS-C sensor (x1.63) - the same crop that most movies are filmed on. For example, a 14mm T3.1 becomes a 10mm T2.2. A 24mm T1.5 becomes a 17mm T1.1 and so forth.

The MFT BMCC can also take advantage of the Speed Booster, but if people want to stay with MFT lenses only and avoid the Speed Booster, there is the Noktor 12mm T1.6, Noktor 25mm T0.95, Noktor 35mm T0.95 /T1.4, and the Voigtlander 17.5mm F0.95.

Spend more time researching than talk shit, John.

February 11, 2013

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Voltaire

The speedboster is passive, I would say a great deal of people invested in the DSLR world have electronic lenses, that's gonna be a problem.

February 11, 2013

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carlos

The speedbooster is not passive. The BMCC MTF is passive. But you're right - no EF glass on the MTF BMCC.

February 12, 2013

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Ant

I met with these guys in Beijing over a year ago, they were fishing for ideas, I'm no tech guy but i did say keep it simple. Looks like they are going that way but as some have said already, if you been using DSLR cameras then this will be a piece of cake to use and get good results..

February 11, 2013

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Are there removable batteries?

February 12, 2013

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Ed Z.

Removable battery in the side handle

February 12, 2013

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Jason

Thanks Jason.

February 12, 2013

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Ed Z.

言言你好

February 12, 2013

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Marvin

马文你好

February 12, 2013

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jason

You really want to spend 4,700 which is the standard edition or the Professional edition which is 5,700.

February 12, 2013

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josiah

It looks like those are 3d renderings, not photos...

February 12, 2013

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David

I like this camera but those are 3d renderings I'm sure.

February 12, 2013

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Does RED use CMOS chips, and do either of those have the rolling shutter issue?

Also, how does this compare to a Sony FS100? They call that theirs a super35 chip and the pricing is in the ballpark.

February 13, 2013

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Tom S

I am about to pull the trigger on the FS100. This changes things, I would love to hear how this camera compares if anyone has an idea as of yet

February 14, 2013

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Mike

If Sony just got hit with a lawsuit from RED for patent infringement, these guys are next. That modular design and side handle look like remarkably similar!

February 13, 2013

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a bit more difficult when they're only shipping within china.

February 14, 2013

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Lucas

Trying to sue Chinese manufacturer for infringement....
yeah... good luck with that Red!

February 14, 2013

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Jules

Any camera that washes the bitter 7D & 5D taste out of my mouth will be welcomed with open arms. I can't even watch most Canon DSLR videos these days without slightly cringing- the image is just too worn out to enjoy. I'd rather watch video with real DR, detail and sharpness than the moving oil-paintings I've been subjected to for the last few years.

Hopefully people start adopting these lower priced tools soon, so much potential.

February 14, 2013

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James

Don't be a band wagon jumper my friend. A couple of years ago, the 7D and 5D were Gods among men and got the job done adequately. Now that we're getting RAW, some of us are acting like jerks. Sure h264 isnt the best codec, and moire was horrible, but only us filmmakers/videographers could really notice. Don't be unnapreciative for what Canon has done for us. Its only a matter of time before some of us turn on RAW.

September 1, 2013

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James

I know footage from this cam has been hard to find. I've been scouring the internets for some and came across this, so I thought I'd pass it along.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/aG6v3c4ibq0

Cheers.

February 14, 2013

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Well cool. That's my video :)

February 15, 2013

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when this camera will ship to Dubai?

February 14, 2013

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Mher Hakobyan

First I think we should congradulate Kinefinity.com (sm)'s parent company that was making astronomical cameras for getting this far over the last five years. Its not easy to bring a product like this to market but they have a good connection to their factory in China that can convert their renders to finished prototypes and production cameras in a short turnaround time.

No camera has all the needed features in one package at a lower price yet, and there are things that could imporve all of the camera options on the market, but I have shoot with the KineRAW-S35 (tm) and processed the DNG frames and looked at them on my high quality 2048x1556 CRT monitor and I have looked at frames from the other DNG camera options as well since I support CinemaDNG in my freeish DI/NLE/Grade/Mix software and the ability to use our real Cinema Glass in Mitchell NC, OCT-19, 2709, and Eyemo mount gives very good results.

I have sent a great deal of footage to them to share, but they have not posted it for people to review, not because of any fault I can see in the footage for the most part. I got frustrated with posting versions on Vimeo because of the heavy losses and block artifacts caused from conversion to H.264, and the need to over de-noise the footage to prevent misquito noise in making an H.264 version to upload to Vimeo. But I can say looking at the uncompressed AVI play in 2K is something that gives a snappy quality to the images, so much of the fault you may see in examples is not due in particular to the camera but rather the way the footage has been processed to display.

As for resolution being higher in a camera without an OLPF filter, yes you can get a false peak in MTF curves from aliasing. The custom designed OLPF in the S35 does its job well and when used with good cinema lenses stopped down one can increase the luma sharpen in de-Bayer processing, such as in my de-Bayer program option, to get very good results that don't show a lot of aliasing and chroma artifacts that cameras without OLPF can show since when an OLPF is used you can sharpen the luma without sharpening the chroma which was blured by the OLPF to avoid false color artifacts on edges and surface texture. In fact with the right OLPF its been my experence that you can get greater control over the MTF shape by adjustment of the anti-OLPF sharpen when an OLPF is used than when it is not used because when you don't use an OLPF and you do sharpen you sharpen the existing aliasing and moire artifacts where as when the OLPF is used, the actual subject edges seem to have higher contrast so sharpen with advantage over the resudue aliasing and moire and the chroma artifacts in particular are reduced in total by having the OLPF in the camera.

For myself, the lack of an OLPF and changable lens mount are two reasons not to select the BMDCC over the S35-mini as having good Cinema glass and an OLPF makes more movie like images over so called "digital" lenses that do not focus to high resolution in order to make soft images for HDSLR that do not have a strong enough OLPF for movie mode (the HDSLR OLPF is optimized for stills mode which means the blur radius is half what it should be).

Hopefully rentals will be avalable and you can try both or other DNG recording cameras yourself in your own hands and to process their frames in your own workflow so you can know for yourself what your finished film is going to look like.

I went to a hi-fi retiler one time and they had lots of strereos sitting around with price tags on them, and the odd thing was that none of them were setup with speakers to listen to what the sounded like! How does one purchase a stereo without listening to the results, Class-A, Class-B, Tube, Bipolar, HEX-FET, etc. all SOUND different in their own ways aside from the circuit design, yet all types sold to various people, in some cases without the buyer ever compairing how each one sounded, based on what? Price?

Price along should not be your guide, more so in the selection of a camera that will leave its footprint on your finished movie. Do you want to use soft "digital" lenses, do you want chroma moire and false MTF peaks making actor's blemishes stand out if they move into prime focus during part of a shot?

The interaction between the OLPF+IR/UV cut filter and the sensor, lenses, and de-Bayer software has maybe as much impact on the end results as the sensor itself from the samples I have seen. I was able to look at the internal tests of the OLPF filter development for the KineRAW-S35 (tm) camera so I am one of the few people that as seen those internal tests and the developments of their image chain over the last few years. Much of the early tests shown did have issues both with the relation ship between the sensor and their previous OLPF design and with the workflow and the color balance of the combination of the OLPF+IR cut filter and the de-Bayer workflow they were using. A vast improvement has happend over the last few years and changes made have resolved many of the workflow issues to get better color balance in the end results, and hopefully that refinement will continue with additional improvements by their sensor maker.

I don't understand why these forums seem to end up as some kind of "us aganst them" conflect, unless clacks with an ax to grind are involved, some people like oranges and others banannas, the earth is large enough for both kinds of people to like together is it not?

March 2, 2013

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