February 18, 2014

Blackmagic Production Camera 4K Goes Head-to-Head with the Canon 1D-C & RED EPIC

Last week, Blackmagic Design once again shook up the cinema camera market with their announcement that the BMPC 4K would begin shipping immediately at $1000 cheaper than expected. Cut to one week later, and the first of many forthcoming camera comparison videos have hit the web. If you're wondering how the BMPC 4K stacks up against the Canon 1D-C and the RED EPIC, cameras which are significantly more expensive than Blackmagic's offering, here are a few videos that should clarify things.

First, we've got a comparison of Canon's 1D-C with the BMPC 4K from the fine folks over at Cinema 5D. At this point, the 1D-C is the closest competitor to the BMPC 4K (at least until the GH4 is released) in terms of them being small form-factor 4K cinema-capable cameras  With that said, the 1D-C comes in with a price tag that is more than $10k more than the BMPC, so calling them competitors is a bit like comparing apples to pork chops.

In terms of basic aesthetic quality, the two cameras are fairly similar, and there is little doubt that these two cameras could work side-by-side in a multiple camera shoot. Not surprisingly, however, there are some areas where the 1D-C blows the BMPC out of the water, most notably low-light performance. On the flip side, rolling shutter is no longer an issue with the BMPC due to its global shutter, so handheld work might very well be more suited to the Blackmagic.

Next, we've got a comparison of the BMPC 4K with the RED EPIC from filmmaker Toby Kahler. This isn't a "which is better" kind of test. Instead, it's meant to see how footage from these two cameras might be cut together in a two camera shoot.

Once again, there is little doubt that these two cameras could work in tandem on a multiple camera shoot. With that said, the BMPC 4K definitely has a bit less dynamic range than its counterpart in this video. Also, the Blackmagic team will once again need to find a firmware solution for the red circle artifact that appears when the BMPC 4K is pointed directly at the sun. Considering how they dealt with similar issues in the pocket camera, there should be little doubt that this problem will be fixed soon.

What do you guys think? How does the BMPC 4K stand up against (or with) its significantly more expensive competitors? Have you had the opportunity to shoot with the BMPC 4K yet? If so, tell us about the experience down in the comments!

Links:

Your Comment

110 Comments

Seems like the first few shots with the Epic didn't quite hit the focus mark. So coming from BMCC 4K to that makes it look like a big loss in sharpness/clarity but you see later on in the video the points in focus are a little sharper than the BMCC 4K.

February 18, 2014 at 6:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Either way, the BMCC 4K seems amazing!

February 18, 2014 at 6:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Yeah. I'm going to get a BM4K but the Epic is a far superior camera. A great era for low budget cameras.

February 18, 2014 at 6:13PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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ADC

I wonder how these cameras (minus the epic) would stack up against the Red one mx? Isn't it less expensive than the 1Dc? Hardy said it best, it's like comparing apples to pork chops, the Epic is splendid but the bm4k is no joke at all. All this hype, new technology which looks great btw, I'm just saying it'd be interesting to see how the one mx still stacks up considering its cost today.

February 18, 2014 at 9:02PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Anthony Marino

Apples to Ruth's Chris. But the apple was in ProRes. Pretty good apple. I love that 4K detail from both. Both look fantastic. Both better than what we could have seen from anything anywhere 5 to 7 years ago. Can't go wrong with either!

February 18, 2014 at 9:44PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

Yep, it's seems as though 4k will be the new 1080p but my question remains, how soon? Hey its here, it aint going nowhere but when will we see it in all its splendid glory? If I shoot 4k and view it on my system that doesnt count. But I'm gonna bet the benefit to 4k now is how nice it downscales to 1080p. We've been viewing Red footage now for a little while, even the theater it's still only 2k but still it looks great. Industry will catch up, so will the public, but I think by the time it does our cell phones will be shooting 4k as good as the BM4k image. Probably with higher frame rates too, Ha. But for now have fun, enjoy, it's definitely a cleaner and sharper.

February 18, 2014 at 10:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Anthony Marino

It appears the GH4K will be able to do 1080p at 10 bit 4:4:4, using 4K footage to start with.

Link to story: http://news.doddleme.com/equipment/panasonics-gh4-could-shoot-1080p-in-1...

February 18, 2014 at 10:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

Also should be noted that he Epic was shooting Raw and the BMCC was shooting pro res.

Blackmagic certainly seems to have the best high quality choice available for indie filmmakers especially now with the price point $1000+ less!

As a BMPCC owner, I'm thoroughly impressed by what this company is doing in providing tools for people who want something a little more cinematic than dslr's, but without spending ridiculous amounts on an Epic or 1DC/C300/C500 or Alexa

February 18, 2014 at 6:22PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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CaleBrooks

+1

February 18, 2014 at 9:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

It looks to me like the Red was soft in the entire shoot with the girl. Not until the planes did we see a jump in sharpness... and there, I'm not sure how much - hard to tell. I found myself liking the Blackmagic image more on the girl.

February 19, 2014 at 9:38AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Alan

The first bit wasn't focused properly.

February 19, 2014 at 12:48PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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It is an unfair comparison, is obvious red epic is going to be 20 times better thats why you pay that price.... oh wait, it wasn't that superior... if you want the ultimate quality ok go for epic, otherwise the 4k Blackmagic is more than fine

February 18, 2014 at 7:01PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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daniel

stop crying and be happy with BMCWTF ever it is...
It is an unfair comparison because you are comparing with it 4 years old Red Epic.
Compare with Dragon next time.Even Red epic MX looks shitty when you compare to Dragon

February 18, 2014 at 7:24PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kemalettin

The difference between something good, and something extremely good might be slight, but in price is a huge abyss, what im saying is some times it worth it, must of the times a BlackMagic will deliver the job

February 18, 2014 at 7:32PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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daniel

For dialogue or 24FPS scenes, BMPC definitely could work as a B-camera or a cheaper alternative for someone. But IMHO the sensor isn't the big differentiator.

1. RAW workflow has a ways to catch up with REDCODE. Even though premiere supports RAW you still have to transcode to get the proper workflow going with maximum quality with this camera
2. Its only 30FPS. Even 48FPS, especially 96/120/300 on the Epic is game changing for a lot of run N gun/commercial work. Its the difference between having a slider a job, or just hand holding the camera sometimes.
3. Its not production ready compared to EPIC. The epic used to get a lot of s**t for its buggy software (I've experienced a few failures. The Black Magic firmwares while not buggy lack critical features for my typer of production environment (namely black sun dot, audio metering/bugs, & formatting/usage)

And in terms of pure sensor? The BMCC is mind blowing for money but it still can't touch the Epic and I expect the same of the BMPC. That said, I am a happy BMCC owner while my brother is a happy Epic owner. He is a DP first, director second, I'm a producer first, director second so it makes sense. :)

February 18, 2014 at 6:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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That's a ton of sense you just talked.
Agree with all of it.
For me, even 48fps would make the BM an instant buy.

February 19, 2014 at 12:47PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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marklondon

I really love how the Black Magic handles the color. In the second video... It seems to look great in camera, ungraded. I prefer it over the red (atleast in this test) which seems to push more magenta in the highlights. It really stuck out to me. Im sure with a little grading they could be matched better though. :)

February 18, 2014 at 6:23PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Derek K

Red does not correct color skews in clipped hightlights during recording. They leave it for post with the DRX control. Its a two second fix, some newer Red shooters don't know it, thats why you might see some pink skies on vimeo.

February 18, 2014 at 8:03PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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ryan

Thanks for that.

February 19, 2014 at 11:24AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Adriano

Yes, thanks for the explanation.

February 21, 2014 at 4:51AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Derek K

I looked at the BMPC 4K clips on Youtube on the best monitor I got ( a 27 Inch, 2560x1440 monitor) and the resolution is definitely impressive! Believe it or not, but I am beginning to view my 1080p footage with a different eye now. It now looks it lacks something in resolution and feel a bit "pixely" whereas before I thought 1080p is all I would ever need. The 4K looks like close to "real life" to me, it literally pops off the screen. The actual and perceived resolution of the human eye is certainly higher than 1080p. 4K video is more than just a marketing trick to sell new technology.

Having a 10 bit ProRes image (or 12 bit in raw) is making a big difference too. I think there are very few professional photographers that shoot 8 bit JPG still images, they almost all use raw (14 bit on Canon/Nikon). It makes a lot of sense to apply that to video as well. I think 4K video has a bright future.

I ordered my BMPC July last year and can't wait to get started with it.

February 18, 2014 at 6:30PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Erwin

The same thing about 4K video looking better the more you see it also happened to me a few months back. 1080p now looks inferior. To think just a very short time ago BluRay was awesome!

February 18, 2014 at 9:50PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

In terms of simple image, I'm really liking how the BMPC 4K is looking. The color science seems to have improved. Maybe it's the different sensor. Or whatever. Regardless, I like it. And I like the motion. I think it's subtle, but noticeable. It's pretty.

February 18, 2014 at 6:34PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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BMD 4K is fantastic looking but of course the EPIC is far superior and MUCH more filmic but $3k compared to 19k is no real match ...... ill get one of these but it will be more of a B camera or C cam.

You just cant beat the high speed on EPIC

February 18, 2014 at 6:41PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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nigel Thompson

not to mention the $3k includes a complimentary DaVinci license ($1k value).

February 18, 2014 at 10:14PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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sid

I think the problem with EPIC is it kind of has a plasticy look, whereas the BMPC has a more Alexa / Filmic look to it. It might be the colors, but EPIC stumbles a bit with vivid colors, it just becomes too video-y.

February 19, 2014 at 11:05PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kaleb

Just gonna say this before someone else does in a not so polite mannor and then we can all move on with our lives:

"Also, the Blackmagic team will once again need to find a firmware solution for the red circle artifact that appears when the BMPC 4K is pointed directly at the sun. Considering how they dealt with similar issues in the pocket camera, there should be little doubt that this problem will be fixed soon."

Not having a go here dude but just curious - are you actually aware that this STILL hasn't been fixed on the 2.5K version which has been out for how long now?

Still - great post. Was literally discussing having a 4K BMCC as B cam on a feature shot on EPIC coming in the next few months and boy does that baby hold up! Great test.

February 18, 2014 at 6:43PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kraig

Bottom-line: it's never been a better time to acquire amazing images for ridiculously small sums of money. BMD will continue to refine it's color science and firmware. Indies will continue to bring BM cameras on-set, especially since the family of BMPCC, BMCC and BMPC are matching really nicely.

Red has had years to refine all of it's elements. However, I wonder if the way that Red gobsmacked the industry just a few years ago, that we will see Red fighting for it's place between the glorious Alexa cameras and the low-cost, but effective Blackmagic series.

February 18, 2014 at 6:58PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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ARRI will be out with its 4K camera some time soon. I read on this blog from commenter marklondon that they've been working on the sensor for 18 months. It can't be much longer until it's done, can it?

But then Red has the 6K Red Dragon which is in a class all its own better than the Red 4K---and is already in use, Transformers should be out soon that used the 6K Red Dragon for the big money scenes.

Who will be the first to 8K?

February 18, 2014 at 9:55PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

Sony already has 8K broadcasting camera's ready...

February 19, 2014 at 5:48AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Henri

alexa at 2k destroys a 4k epic in terms of image.

February 19, 2014 at 10:04PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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MenAtWork

Just curious - if you have to magnify the image 800% to see any difference, does it mean that there's no "real life" difference? Sure, a major TV network will use 4K to zoom into 720p - technically, from about 8.8M pixels down to 1M - during the sporting events but how often does one use 800% zoom in otherwise? Not that I can tell on Vimeo but, on YouTube, it's very hard to spot any sharpness variances between any available 4K cams, including even JVC's Q10 on the low end and Sony F65 on the high.

February 18, 2014 at 7:17PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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DLD

I think the difference is pretty damn obvious, have you had your eyes checked recently? And I mean that literally, not trying to be a dick.

February 19, 2014 at 10:02AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Birdman

[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWa-Ck39gCk ] This is the test I was talking about ... and I see difference when the picture is blown up. I don't see very many differences when it's 100%*
'
*Disclaimer - I am only viewing them at 2.5K on an older monitor with my old eyes. That said, I can definitely see the diff between 1080p and 1440p.
.
PS. GH4 will run ~ $1,500 and, I assume, the attachment module will add ~ $600 more.

February 19, 2014 at 10:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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DLD

The BMPC4K definitely has better color separation than the Epic. However, being a new camera, it's still rough around the edges. It's interesting to see that quality in a new camera juxtaposed with a camera line that had to work through its own set of issues in the beginning. Overall, the Epic images feel like they're a tad more refined and mature. That's good news for the BMPC4K looking forward, if BMD keeps on top of the firmware updates. I don't know that gaining a global shutter was worth giving up that stop of dynamic range, though.

February 18, 2014 at 7:20PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

I want to own this camera, but I own 60 grand in PL mount glass...
Puh-leeze release a Sony A mount version or something that takes adapters FFS.

GH4 is a viable option (with adapters) for me, but the crop factor is less then stellar for the wide end.
I'd be happy with a "speed booster" PL to MFT adapter though...

February 18, 2014 at 7:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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jd holloway

JD, for someone with $60K worth of PL lenses, the solution has long been at hand.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/898428-REG/Sony_PMW_F55_CineAlta_4...

February 19, 2014 at 3:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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DLD

*Sony FZ or some-such

February 18, 2014 at 7:42PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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jd holloway

If I start out saying my total budget will be under 50 k for an indie genre feature; I simply get more bang for my buck BUYING a few of the BMCC 4ks; hunt for old manual lenses; get one of these 800.00 4k ultra flat screens out now; and start shooting light and cam and color correction tests in low to average - bright light conditions.
The indie world I come from? 50 k - 100 k for a 90 min. feature is with a very small cast-crew is true indie. I don't have the money for anything RED, and I don't wanna fucking rent, because I'm always going to be open to test shots and footage at moment's notice. That's our plan of attack now for this first 90 min genre indie feature. No one's getting paid anything. We're shooting on weekends. Everyone in the acting cast are also crew members. We stretch every fucking penny we can. I wouldn't know what to do with a budget over 100k.

February 18, 2014 at 7:52PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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MARK GEORGEFF

Seiki 4K 50" now at $599.88 on Sears.com.

Link: http://www.sears.com/seiki-50inch-class-4k-120hz-led-ultra-hdtv/p-057715...

Seiki 4K 39" now at $519.99 from TigetDirect.com (has some kind of offer where you can get it at $459.99).

Link: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?Edp...

February 18, 2014 at 10:07PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

You'd probably relax a little bit... just guessing.

February 18, 2014 at 10:30PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

I would spend a little more on a 4K screen and go for the Dell 24", really the best 4K monitor I used (amongst Dell/Asus 32" and Lenovo 28")

February 19, 2014 at 8:44AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Henri

Pay your crew

February 19, 2014 at 9:45AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Jojo

+1

February 19, 2014 at 11:26AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Jorge Cayon

The weird thing is that no matter how big the budget, you never have enough money, and problems get bigger not smaller. Its an inverse relationship, which is why you see so many 'big' directors talk rapturously about making "small' films >$15M.
It can seem frustrating and overwhelming, but wait until you're sitting in an edit suite having burned $10/$30/$70/$100M+ and your film doesn't work. I've actually seen that turn human beings into drooling mincemeat. Some of them never recover.
$100k is a solid indie budget these days. And you are correct in your camera choice: if you can buy, buy.
Good luck!

/and I'm assuming he is paying his crew at that amount.

February 19, 2014 at 12:58PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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marklondon

Whoops - if you're under 50k you may not be paying ALL your crew :-)
My advice: don't skimp on sound.

February 19, 2014 at 1:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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marklondon

Check out this video with the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
http://vimeo.com/86872428

I agree with a Facebook friend who wrote today:

Dear Canon.

I was seriously thinking about buying a C300 but something has changed my mind. Don't get me wrong, it's been real, watching you create new imaginative cameras at new imaginative price points but I've moved on.

All the very best.

Sincerely

A former customer.

February 18, 2014 at 7:57PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Check out this video with the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K

http://vimeo.com/86872428

I agree with a Facebook friend who wrote today:

Dear Canon.

I was seriously thinking about buying a C300 but something has changed my mind. Don't get me wrong, it's been real, watching you create new imaginative cameras at new imaginative price points but I've moved on.

All the very best.

Sincerely

A former customer.

February 18, 2014 at 7:59PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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I cant wait for mine to come in! Im gonna be doing an extensive review and comparing to the 5D Mark III. I'll make sure to share it on NFS.

February 18, 2014 at 8:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Caleb

The exposure methodology is completely different between RED and BMC. On RED you can underexpose 2-3 stops and be fine lifting in post. Th darks rolloff is amazingly. BMC's you can overexpose by 2-3 stops and be fine dropping int down in post. The highlight retention is amazing. Sounds like cameras for two different filmmakers that don't even work on the same kinds of films. If you like apple commercials shoot BMC, you like House of Cards REDs the way to go.

February 18, 2014 at 8:17PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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ryan

James Miller also posted some footage he shot T Philip bloom's favorite beach http://youtu.be/9E-laP_XJ6g

February 18, 2014 at 8:17PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Felipe Opazo

Ah yes, but you should shoot in FS700 4K Sony RAW and see which image is really the boss...

February 18, 2014 at 9:44PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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shaun wilson

Convergent design just got the nod from Sony to record their RAW on the fs700.

February 18, 2014 at 10:00PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Anthony Marino

Our friend Toby needs to practice his focusing skills a little more. Or get a better VF for his EPIC.

February 18, 2014 at 10:35PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

To me the canon 1DC just blew away the vmcc 4K in my opinion but thats just me but the canon is 9 thousand more so theres that

February 19, 2014 at 12:43AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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jake

1DC has more DR than BMC? Oh...it has less contrast not more DR...its 8 bit for f**k sake...with that contrast, you can get only banding no matter what. Cant compare with 10 or 12 bit.

February 19, 2014 at 12:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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gigi

8/10/12/16/32 bits...none of them really limit dynamic range to a certain number of stops. FS700 has over 13.5 stops of dynamic range with cinegammas and that's 8bit AVCHD.

February 19, 2014 at 4:46AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Teuvo Pakkanen

How can 1Dc have more dynamic range than BMCC4K?

February 19, 2014 at 2:20AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Miha

I want to see the 5D ML RAW vs BMC in 2K!!!!!

February 19, 2014 at 3:11AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Javier Mollo

Anyone has experience how does bmcc 4k work on PC using CinemaDNG RAW and davinci resolve?

February 19, 2014 at 5:03AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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I own BMCC and Im PC user. CinemaDNGs work fine. I used Resolve and CameraRAW for color correct and both work good.

February 19, 2014 at 6:04AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Miha Horvat

1DC is rubbish. Awful colours. 8bit crap.

February 19, 2014 at 5:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Johnny

And you are saying after using the 1DC for how long? Please, give us a break!!!

BMC4k is great so is 1DC and plenty of other cameras. they just different. but enough slagging off cameras all the time.

February 19, 2014 at 3:25PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Anthony Bert

I've used the 1DC extensively. I am telling you - its not only overrated, but it is not worth it's price AT ALL. Its 8-bit colour-depth falls apart under duress, and the rolling-shutter it suffers from at 4K is absolutely TERRIBLE. 1080P is not so bad, but the 4K is rubbish. Have you even shot with it? Do you even know how ancient and inefficient its codec is? 500Mbit MJPEG - the editors I work with can't stand it, let alone the colour-graders. $11,999.00? Give me a break.

February 20, 2014 at 7:24AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Johnny

Shane Hurlbut and Philip Bloom among many others are doing fantastic, graded work with the 1DC. I own and use one on a regular basis and love it. No problem converting the MJPEG to Prores to edit with.

February 21, 2014 at 3:45PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Craig Meadows

BLACK SPOT AGAIN!! I cant believe this is their 3rd camera and for the 3rd time there are black spots in bright highlights!!!! WTF

February 19, 2014 at 6:13AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Happy to share my footage and thoughts:

http://www.cinema5d.com/?p=23526

Thanks!

Johnnie

February 19, 2014 at 6:43AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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That really is a nice video. It looks beautiful and fascinating. I know some will complain about how it was graded, the color isn't this or that. But that video shows the nice potential of the BM4K. People can always grade differently if they want.

This video is worth talking about. I hope NoFilmSchool will make a post about it and discussion can happen in the comment thread of it.

It seems the BM4K will distract from the Digital Bolex especially since Digital Bolex refuses to consider 4K. But who knows, maybe time will show the Digital Bolex can look better than the BM4K......?

February 19, 2014 at 7:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

Thank you Gene, appreciated!

Yves, can you please check if your camera is exhibiting any of the following issues described here: http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=23587

Thank you!

Johnnie

February 19, 2014 at 9:03AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Johnnie

I don't own a BlackMagic 4K. At least not yet I don't. With it streaming an ungraded image I can't use it. Though I really do like it's look, and its price too! I would like to see discussion about your issue from those who do have the camera since some day BM 4K may have internal grading to make an image look like a finished product the way Panasonic cameras now can---then I may buy one, or more.

I haven't yet gotten a 4K camera. My first 4K purchase will likely be the GH4K with a Voigtlander Nokton 17.5mm f/0.95 lens. I know that's an expensive lens. But If I'm going to go 4K, and1080p high frame rate, I want to use a lens that has the look I enjoy. A few hundred dollars more is worth it to me to have a lens that would look that good for years and years. Saving money to buy a lens that may not have a picture that would satisfy me as much as the Voightlander seems like I would be shortchanging myself every time I saw the image. I don't feel like living with such a feeling. I'll just pay they few hundred dollars more.

February 19, 2014 at 11:54PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

Sorry Johnnie, I don't have a BM4K.

February 20, 2014 at 7:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

Great work as ever Johnnie. Love your site.
Great info re those white pixels.
I think its more a drama cam than a doco cam unless you were absolutely in charge of every setup.
It does remind me strongly of our first attempts at shooting docs with a RED MX. That was 'interesting' for the first year.

February 19, 2014 at 1:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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marklondon

Happy to share my footage, too. I am new to the BMPC, but I know how to shoot on a 5Dm3. When I drove back I shot some scenes out of the car, but at that time I did not know much about how to set the iris, so please excuse a few over/underexposed shots. Having said that, I love the lowlight scenes and the moon ;-) Also the detail of the A380 taking of in the opening shot is amazing IMHO.

I also believe it is not only about the camera, but about the workflow as well. I can work with BM4K content natively and in realtime thanks to ProRes on my MacBook Pro retina. Sure, I like the 1DC and C500 stuff, but I can't afford it and this way I am saving double: On the camera and on the MacPro I don't have to buy. Presto!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3VijVL-L18&google_comment_id=z13zg5xzyof...

February 19, 2014 at 8:18AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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I would have liked to see a final grade honestly. That would have given us an even better idea of how you could match the two. Then we could have a guess which camera is which situation.

Also, I think one thing that nobody talks about is AVAILABLE dynamic range. Sure, the Canon 1DC has more perceived dynamic range, but what can you pull back on the BMCC4K that you can't on the 1DC? ProRes HQ is a really robust codec and lossless RAW even more so. With that being said, I would like to see a comparison of what you can pull back in post on these two cameras. My guess is that the 1DC wouldn't stand up well with it's Motion JPEG compression. So in the end, maybe the BMCC4K has more dynamic range when everything is said and done. Think about that! : )

February 19, 2014 at 9:32AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Ben Corwin

Long live the Gh2! http://vimeo.com/30751603
(laughs while pointing finger at Red Epic)

February 19, 2014 at 9:40AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Ed

Do you think the GH2 looks better in any of those comparisons? I'm just curious what you're looking for aesthetically.

February 19, 2014 at 1:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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ChristopherG

They both win.

Stunning quality. Checkout this screen grab from the BM. To think that 200 million dollar movies couldn't get this digital quality 10 years ago.

http://goo.gl/WTMEBa

Amazing!

February 19, 2014 at 3:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Jordan Marks

BM image is nice, but there are couple or more stops of difference in latitude. Look at the clouds and keep in mind that the Epic looses about a stop when rendered in RG3.

February 20, 2014 at 7:28AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Álex Montoya

@Alex - Yeah, BUT the BM4K image you are looking at is ProRes, not BM4K RAW.

March 3, 2014 at 11:05PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Razor

I'm amazed there are no comments on the BM4K black spot clearly visible in the video!! That makes the camera unusable.

February 19, 2014 at 9:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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A 2 year old could remove that in about 10 seconds. If you've edited for more than 5 minutes in your entire life... this is not an issue at all.

February 19, 2014 at 11:00PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kaleb

2 year old also can remove pink tint from overexposed RED MX footage with DRX, but 2 year olds still bitching about it

February 20, 2014 at 1:28AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Natt

Kaleb if you honestly think its acceptable for a camera, a camera that is calling itself professional to have a big black hole in the centre of every light source in every shot then we can see who the 2 year old is. If I shot that and the client had to see that while editing I would loose the client. If they didnt see it and I fixed it in all the shots I might loose the client because it wasn't delivered in time. At the very least it would reflect on me.

Plus every minute I spend fixing the spots that should never be there in the first place is time lost, I cant even bill a client for that because they shouldn't have to pay extra because it was shot on a shitty sensor.

This is a hobbyists camera like the other BM cameras until BM address all the issues they should have from day one. I want BM to do well, its good for the industry to have more competition.

P.s. the dynamic range on it is terrible. There is no point in getting excited about 10 bit, 12 bit, if the camera just blows out clouds and crushes shadows. 12 bit wont recover whats in this footage.

February 20, 2014 at 1:47AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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You may not like Alexa: it exhibits the same issue from time to time. It's a product of maximizing Dynamic Range, at this price (and, even greater) sacrifice has to be made.

The difference is... ARRI's out of the price brackets of people that would log onto forums to complain about such a thing. ARRI's clientele and users file complaints with the manufacturer, seek answers/solutions, and move on with their careers.

How many instances of Alexa XTs being shipped with fans that don't work have you read or heard about? I'm going to guess zero, but you can google it.

ARRI's got hold of the marketplace for many reasons, pricing their gear for rational professionals only is just one of them.

February 20, 2014 at 4:04AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kholi

And, because I know how this game goes... it's just that kind of crowd, go and find Sherlock Season 3, the Episode where Sherlock and Watson are in London's underground transit.

Watson's got a high powered flashlight and points it right into camera.

Look at the center of the flashlight. Straight black.

Season 2 and 3 - Shot on Alexa.

February 20, 2014 at 4:12AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kholi

Your right I'm not particularly a fan of the Alexa look myself although I know most might be, its nice but doesn't feel progressive (many don't want progressive tho). I knew about their black spots too but at least it has the dynamic range to make up for it and generally budgets to fix them. I haven't seen Sherlock yet but plan to when I get a chance to I will watch for spots in season 2 if I get to it. I've only just had a chance to see to first few episodes of Blacklist (amazing skin in that).

Most cameras have a weakness somewhere but a black spot anytime its pointed at anything bright enough is too much.

What I don't get is why it takes so long to fix. They must know exactly the level that triggers it so why cant the processor substitute white for anything above that level? It should be within the processors speed. If cameras can process and record noise reduction on the fly then why not replace white for anything above a certain clipping level??

February 20, 2014 at 6:48AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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The thing is, fixing it could mean less dynamic range. I want them to take as much time as possible to suss it out if a solution down the road means keeping every bit of DR this camera has.

As well, a point about DR, at one point in time before we were able to acquire footage in 10-bit, and acquisition formats as a whole had advanced so far, DR was really this cold hearted number that IMO didn't have much flexibility.

Today, sure, it's a relevant number, but context is required. For example: on the Canon 5D3 RAW, DR's very poor at the top end but quite good at the bottom end. Thanks to the DNGs, you can shove everything into the bottom end, or most of the image, and you're still able to put off the idea that the camera has more Dynamic Range than it really does up top.

Basically, it's about where you put your information, today. Yesterday, it wasn't really like that. The same thing goes for the 4K camera, and in either of those quick versus tests as long as they shot 400, they had quite a lot of room to push the 4K 10 Bit ProRes down into the ground and recover deep saturation, while saving highlights.

I say this from two months of experience shooting with the 4K camera. Don't take it as me trying to sell you the tool, this goes for a lot of the cameras coming around the corner. Specs on paper don't tell nearly the kind of tale they once did, s'all I'm saying.

SHerlock is really fun. =D

February 20, 2014 at 10:30AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kholi

It's really not hard to avoid light sources. Lights used to kill camera tubes not that long ago. I'm sure Black Magic will provide a fix soon.

February 20, 2014 at 3:37PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JG

Its not just the source its any bright reflection too. In the past we've seen scenes shot with BM cameras where in just one shot there were multiple spots in reflections of light sources. Things like chrome, windows, car headlights at night. There are bright highlights everywhere.

I love Blackmagic gear but not yet the cameras. They shouldnt have made the pocket or 4K cameras before they fixed the 2K camera. Their first camera was still their best. Instead of trying to make 2 new cameras they should have made the first super35mm, audio levels (thats big!! yes I know there are workarouds) media remaining etc.

They could have focused on the first and made it great. Turned it into a platform. They could have made a new housing for the 2K with a decent screen and v-lock battery mount and ditch the internal. There is so much they could have done with the time since releasing the first that people were asking for. Nobody was asking for a pocket or 4K from them.

February 20, 2014 at 5:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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my two year old just poured pink juice on my keybOARDasJHVASJhFUCCCCCCcccCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCccccccCCCCCcccCCCCcCCCCCccCCCCCCCcccC

February 20, 2014 at 2:47AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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hm, both don't look good.

February 19, 2014 at 10:00PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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MenAtWork

Both cameras are phenomenal especially in light of where we were 5-10 years ago. The BMPC is a bit too sharp, and seems more video-like than the RED but that's easy to fix. I'm a believer, I've got my order in with Adorama and I look forward to getting to getting in on jobs asap. Well done BlackMagic.

February 19, 2014 at 11:50PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Phillip Bloom just shot a bunch of footage with 1D C in 4K. Looks pretty darn nice to me. This is Innsbruck but there are also two other "postcards" videos in 4K on his channel.
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbvVpvXwlKU ]
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Now, if Canon can half the price for the NAB ...

February 20, 2014 at 10:23AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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DLD

DLD are you holding your breath for that? Don't let me hear someone walked in on you laying on the floor all blue.

February 20, 2014 at 7:53PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene (not the 3...

Got to say that for $3,000... the Blackmagic camera is pretty astounding.

I imagine the hot pink spot from the sun will be fixed in a future patch. Or it may already have been fixed with shipping cameras.

February 20, 2014 at 4:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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A bit unfair comparing ProRes with RAW. It may look close, but the difference is there. I wonder how much more qualities of the Epic's epic footage the Blackmagic would demonstrate, especially visible in the darker airplane shots, when shot in RAW. If i remember well the difference was quite striking in their other cameras.

February 20, 2014 at 4:49PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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soulofsound

Lets not forget this one simple basic. Internal battery, internal media, add a lens and for less than $4000.00 you are shooting 4K. Albeit there are problems but not insurmountable. Comparison to Epic? No, it's no Epic. But neither is it $40,000.00 to shoot. If it was as good as Epic then god help RED. But hey, watch this space, I think the ground between RED and every other manufacturer is going to get closer and closer and is an excellent reason not to buy a camera but just rent the best when you need it. I can think back to when I was oh so close to buying a REDONE. Thank God I didn't. But just bear in mind before you pay buy a BM 4K you could buy a 4K REDONE for not that much more. Now that's a much better comparison - spec for spec the pound for pound or dollar for dollar the BM no longer seems quite so attractive?

February 20, 2014 at 6:25PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Iain Philpott

If you have a great story, great talent, great lighting and great sound, you can use a Panasonic DVX-100 with an anamorphic lens, blow it up and deliver a masterpiece.

February 20, 2014 at 11:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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pacificbeachca

Bless :)

February 21, 2014 at 1:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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I have taken the Blackmagic Production Camera to Germany's capital Berlin for a day of shooting. The idea was to capture a few more shots to demonstrate the versatility of the camera. In this take you have indoor scenes as demaded, wide shots over the city with a lot of detail, twilight scenes with high contrast/dynamic range and a final climaxing in a shot pointed directly towards the sun (with no pink dots in the sun center). Enjoy and let me know your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLJK5DT7qpU&feature=share&list=UUgrth1SCZ...

February 21, 2014 at 2:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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This BMC4K footage looks really good, Yves ... OK, the black orbs need to go but that aside, this is a fine camera and, given its price range, it will be a great buy once all the early flaws are eliminated. IMO, a lot of people will initially buy the higher priced products out of inertia but, at some point, the king's attire will reveal itself to be a tad too transparent.
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PS. That Berlin is an architectural mess, isn't it?

February 21, 2014 at 4:56PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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DLD

Yo get what you pay for IMHO. Outside of the superior global shutter, and price, there is nothing that would make me consider the BMPC 4K. The excessive noise levels are simply unacceptable.

February 22, 2014 at 4:56PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JamesB

totally agree-- if you don't know how to light a scene-- definitely go for a 30K Dragon Epic. if you know a thing or two about lighting-- BMPC 4K is not a bad camera to have in your arsenal.

February 24, 2014 at 2:04AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Steve D

^I'm just not on board with this.

Some of today's most beautifully lit shots are -technically- under lit. You could argue that many people are actually pushing for a more farside-keyed, under lit, cinematic look. More of an augmented-naturalism. Its hot right now, stroll over to vimeo's staff picks and have a look. This cam should be able to handle some basic exposure compensation, period. We're almost stuck at iso400! Did anyone expect it to be a Red/Alexa/etc… no. Did they expect it to be this noisy… no way!

Maintaining shadow cleanliness (even in well lit shots) is critical. This camera might as well have a fixed ISO, because any compensation reveals noise. It's a bummer. We're not talking about bad low-light sensitivity, we're talking about just downright BAD sensitivity compared to other sub $10k tools out there. Working around slight rolling shutter seems like a dream compared to losing this much exposure control.

You can try to argue the price point is low, but unfortunately saving $2-3k is pointless if the tool can't perform under todays regular sensitivity expectations. It's my aesthetic opinion that DR and light sensitivity are more crucial to a cinematic image than many other factors (ie resolution). It seems like a bad purchase when you mix in the other goofy issues: no audio levels, rough audio quality, monitor frame delays, poor build quality control, etc...

Bummer… Blackmagic's next move will be very telling for those on the fence.

February 26, 2014 at 4:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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PatrickD

shsssh..this 4k marketing stuff is boring me. Movie goers can't tell the difference between 4k and 2k. They really don't care. All they care about is a movie that was made with good production values and quality and most of all a good story. Man people got to realize trying to keep up from 2k 3k 4k 5k etc is like holding sand in the hand. Bluray is excellent enough for the majority of movie goers. But camera manufacturers know the mind set of people who got the money BUT NOT THE TALENT to make a movie;they want the latest technology to show off on the web of their pets.Toys of people who got money to burn and waste. The manufacturer marketers know that;they know that's the weakness of the American consumer-wanting to be the first on the block with latest technology. I guarantee you before the majority of the new and up and coming flim makers turn 60 they would created a camera that shoots 7k and 8k,9k etc. As long as the dumb American consumer has the desire to buy the new and point of diminishing return new cameras,the camera manufacturers will continue to release better and latest technological marvel. Man just write and shoot a movie. The technology is there to get your story out at man affordable price too. I saw footage(not raw!!) from a 5dmark3 that had cinema style lenses on it on 65inch. Before that the movie that was shot on RED scarlet was shown too . No one could tell the difference . So don't waste your money just go ahead and shoot a movie. Shssh.

February 28, 2014 at 9:58PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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SRay

Hello M!Well first, you need to consider which type of film you will be using. Basically there are two types of films you could use, eitehr the 120mm (a.k.a medium format film) or the regular 35mm film. This shouldn't be a problem since medium format cameras such as Holga & Diana can be modified to take a 35 film, and to me that's an advantage.I haven't tried the supersampler yet. It looks mighty fun But I wouldn't recommend it a lot since there isn't much of modifications you can do to it unlike the Diana.As for the fish-eye camera, I would suggest getting a instead of the whole camera. This way you can have both a regular and a fish eye camera at the same time. Assuming that you live in Kuwait, keep in mind that medium format films aren't very accessible here. As a matter of a fact, I only found one place that still sells 120s but they only had one kind film & unfortunately it was Fuji pro 160.Since you're new to photography, I would suggest eitehr getting a or a with their (just in case you wanted to use a regular film) and get your film supply from .If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I'd be glad to help a future fellow lomographer -Nada

March 17, 2014 at 6:20PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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This camera is not bad but for top filmmakers it won’t work it doesn’t have dynamic range or latitude or what we call textural qualities and that’s all that matters for top DP’s period

March 23, 2014 at 5:42AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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alex

Exactly.

March 29, 2014 at 5:51PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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This is a problem that I can imagine was not addressed because they need to start shipping ASAP. This ia problem that with a simple firmware will be fixed. We are in the area of getting a camera and them receive upgrades to it to make it better. If you want look at sony making more upgrades to their F5 and F55 cameras and canon to the complete camera sets.

April 2, 2014 at 2:57PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Feed your crew very well if you can't pay them. :O

August 5, 2014 at 11:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Oscar Perez