April 3, 2014

How to Get 4K RAW Out of the FS700 Without Using Sony's Recorder

Convergent Desgin Odyssey 7Q-Apple-ProRes-MenuWhen Sony first announced the FS700, they somewhat cryptically stated that there would be a 4K upgrade path to this formerly 1080p-only camera. It wasn't long before we found out what that upgrade option was going to be, and it includes purchasing another module along with the Sony AXS-R5 recorder (the same one that can be used for 4K RAW on the F5 and F55). This rig, besides doubling the price of the camera, is quite a bit unwieldy. Fortunately, there are other options out there. Convergent Design recently announced an update to their much more affordable Odyssey 7Q that gives 4K RAW and ProRes to the FS700 (along with ProRes to any other camera).

Here is Andy Shipsides from AbelCine with a walkthrough of these new features:

Some samples showing just how much better quality is on the FS700 with the 4K RAW update:

And the new record options for the FS700 with the 7Q:

FS700 4K RAW recording up to 60p

“4K2HD” FS700 4K RAW to Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) 1920x1080 recording up to 30p. This feature supports either SLOG2 or IT709 (REC709) Picture Profiles. 1080p super-sampled from 4K RAW for a superior image.

New options for the C500:

  • QuadHD RAW (3840x2160) recording up to 60p
  • 2K & 1080p 12-bit RGB recording up to 30p in .DPX

The rest of the added features in the 1.1.105 update:

  • Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) 1920x1080 recording/playback up to 30p
  • Mix file types on SSDs (raided, non-raided, RAW, ProRes, etc.)
  • OLED Pixel Zoom frame drag (move window around frame)
  • Improved/Added reference marks to Waveform, Histogram and False Color tools
  • OLED automatic screen flip (defeatable)
  • Audio meters
  • Headphone volume control
  • Hide video function (blackout OLED)
  • 1.33 Frame Guide added
  • Overlays on/off for SDI & HDMI outputs

The image quality of the FS700 is clearly improved after the update, so if you're an FS700 owner and you don't already own a 7Q, it may not be a bad option to consider getting one. For under $3,000 including a few SSDs, it's almost like getting an entirely new camera, especially since you're adding both 4K RAW and ProRes, giving you lots of flexibility in post (though of course it was possible to get 2K RAW before this new update).

If you do own a 7Q, head on over to the Convergent Design website.

Links:

Your Comment

56 Comments

I have shot with the FS700 almost everyday for the last year. Having just started using the Odyssey 7Q heavily the last 3 weeks. I am REALLY impressed particularly with the recent update for 4K RAW -> 1080p ProRes shoot retains so much more detail and it is very much like shooting with an entirely new camera.

If you rent or own an FS700 I highly recommend getting the 7Q for it. It is a very liberating tool and a great departure from the internal AVCHD the camera has on its own.

April 3, 2014 at 2:00AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Brandon Lee

I found the 2k RAW from the FS700 via the Odyssey to be quite grainy with Slog2 (exposing 32ire for 18%).
Overexposing would negate this, but then that would lessen the headroom in the highlights - which is the whole reason I'm trying to use this...

Did you have similar experiences with the ProRes?

April 3, 2014 at 3:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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RobW

I dont know the particular case of this curve, but log curves shift the positions to where 18% should fit in the ire, since they interprete diferent light, it might be that 32 ire is already falling in the toe of that particular curve, which means that is balanced to keep info in the highlights (or a heave knee). it worth having a look to white papers from sony, they explain it in most of the cases

April 3, 2014 at 6:00AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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daniel

I cannot stress enough the benefit of the 4K to HD conversion of the 7Q. Sony's internal 4K to 2K downsampling is utterly flawed ... splotchy pink blobs and soft aliased images, horrible depressing crap.

The 4K output however is f**king beautiful by contrast and being able to record that as HD (soon to be 2K), honestly, top marks to Convergent Design for looking after us (where Sony basically turned their back).

This FS700+7Q combo, a super 35 sensor, fairly decent slow-mo, Metabones speedbooster, Zeiss DSLR lenses ... this package is a monster for the money. Shame it took 2 years and 4 manufacturers to get here ;)

April 3, 2014 at 3:48PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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In many ways FS700 is still "old Sony" product. Buy one, be happy you were even allowed to do so... :)
Very, very good sensor but less than stellar internal codec etc.

BUT there is now "new Sony" which is basically F5 / F55 cameras and their customer support . Many seasoned pros mentioned that it is clear that Sony has changed. They really tried to listen to people with the clue, when designing latest two F-series cameras.

And they very admirably followed with steady and high quality camera updates (for free !).

April 3, 2014 at 5:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Juhan-i

Yea, the fs700 has the same sensor as the f5.

April 3, 2014 at 8:42PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Anthony Marino

You're not supposed to use sLog on any gain setting apart from 0dB, shifting above the base ISO/gain creates extremely noisy images. I also heard from a friend who is in regular contact with Sony (Hong Kong) that sLog is *only* meant to be used for shooting raw with the Sony raw recorder. Not for use with the 7Q or any external recorder, despite the 7Q warning message. Confusing.

Also – and this may be obvious to some people – you also have to use the correct FS700 sLog LUTs in Davinci before grading. Simply bumping the primaries without an active LUT just increases the sensor noise. I wish there was a definitive article on the Sony website about this. Trying to glean information from blogs and hearsay is frustrating to say the least.

April 3, 2014 at 3:54PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Nonsense. I shoot Slog 2, XAVC and grade beautiful, noiseless images in Resolve. And, no, you don't use a LUT prior to grading. That's the whole point of grading... doing it from the log file. LUTs are for quick turnaround or dailies and offline editing. I never use LUTs. Just grade the Slog 2 footage and go. And, if you expose properly, you don't get noise.

April 3, 2014 at 9:35PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Guess I should mention, I'm shooting on an F5. Sorry. My comment about LUTs still holds true, though.

April 3, 2014 at 9:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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FS700 "raw" with the 7Q is a misnomer – not exactly the same as Sony F5/55 or RED raw.

Just honestly looking for answers, can you explain to me why sLog and rec709 3D LUTS for the FS700 are available to download from Convergent Design website specifically for use with Resolve?! Import the cDNG sequence, apply the sLog LUT, image 'resets' to what we saw on screen during filming, begin grading; noise is controlled. Export, happy days, job done.

If on the other hand you import the cDNG sequence, start pushing up exposure and midtones to make Resolve match what was shot on set then the image ends up noisy as hell. Again, I'm not being arsey, just confused.

April 5, 2014 at 6:41AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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I actually have not found this to be the case at all. I actually avoid over-exposing and just expose to the middle and in low light, often two stops under and it looks fine in terms of noise, at least to me. I posted some samples below in another thread if you want to check out .

April 3, 2014 at 4:38PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene Sung (non-...

Does anybody know the iso levels for fs700 raw I can't find anywhere on web , all I found was a vimeo post that said raw iso is not much and poor lowlight nothing comparable to slog 20k base iso

April 3, 2014 at 4:40PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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jaye

@Brandon what is the lowlight iso raw like for fs700 what is the highest iso without much noise , can you or anyone share Phillip bloom did a raw test update with fs700 but gave up half way due to Sony's external recorder being to big as an add on

April 3, 2014 at 4:44PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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jaye

I wouldn't dislike external recorders so much if they would just find a more elegant solution to integrating them with the setup. The 7Q is a great step in the right direction, but I can't help but feel there's still a better solution to be had.

April 3, 2014 at 2:04AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Coty

Well, Canon is enlisting Codex for their external 4K Raw recording on C 500. Without a monitor, it might be considerably smaller. On the other hand, it's kind of odd that Sony didn't make a single piece digital interface + recorder themselves.
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BTW, with all the codec licensing and SSD's, Sony FS700 + Q7 combo will run about $13K and it's currently the lowest priced 4K Raw option available. Canon did lower their 1D C price this week to $10K but it's (internal) JPEG 2000.

April 3, 2014 at 4:43AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

The 1dc is also 8bit with banding and no external 4k option , a great complicated toy a year ago but now an overly priced nice stills camera that moonlights as a 4k video camera

I hope the gh4 has external solutions for 96fps , this alone will make it a mini beast

April 3, 2014 at 5:01PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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jaye

Having a field monitor isn't elegant?

April 3, 2014 at 10:14AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Alex

I didn't say it wasn't. I prefer to keep my rigs as small as possible and while I think having a recorder that doubles for a monitor is great, it's a bit too wide for what would be my ideal set up. This is a fantastic solution for the majority of situations/shooters. I'm not knocking it in any way, it's just not the ideal solution for me.

April 3, 2014 at 5:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Coty

I thought the 7Q was going to allow continuous shooting at 200fps, too? Did that not make the cut? 30fps at 1080 seems odd, compared to 60fps in 4K RAW.

April 3, 2014 at 4:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Ben Howling

Yes, 200fps continuous is available but only in RAW mode. For now there is no HFR when recording to ProRes. They will be releasing 60p to ProRes soon and maybe in the future even higher frame rates.

April 3, 2014 at 8:20AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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What I would have liked to know is the actual Dynamic Range from the Fs700 with RAW.
Hopefully Abel Cine will test this.

April 3, 2014 at 5:18AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Raphael Wood

13 creeping towards 14 stops ~ish depending on how you define the lowermost black. I think AbleCine did this test already?

April 3, 2014 at 4:16PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Here's Art Adam's test on FS700 RAW. He says 14 stops, and probably 13 + useable which is pretty good.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/fs700-the-4k-story-f...

Tim Dashwood did a 7Q test, but I'm a bit skeptical because he's calling 15 stops.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/the-odyssey7q-and-sony-fs700-t...

Convergent Design is saying around 14 stops on their charts.

April 3, 2014 at 5:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene Sung (non-...

I've been saying for the last 2 years, 4K is the be all in cameras now. I have been proved right, time and again. This will certainly help push more to adopt 4K. 4K is where it's at people. Believe.

April 3, 2014 at 5:30AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

A few years ago, I predicted earthquakes would, most likely, continue to occur in California.
Maybe we're both psychic.

April 3, 2014 at 9:14PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Just to clarify, the Odyssey 7Q gives the option of BOTH Raw and ProRes recording? Reading around it's confusing me!

April 3, 2014 at 6:47AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Adrian

What I was asking was can it record 4K Raw. Reading it again looks like the answer's "no".

April 3, 2014 at 6:50AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Adrian

It can record 4k Raw! Sony allow it and they already put it at the lastest firmware update. They going to put compressed 4k recording in coming firmware update.

April 3, 2014 at 7:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Alan TJ

I think I should go back to bed and start again today... What I REALLY meant was does it record 4k ProRes? The file size overheads of Raw are just so damn big. But thank,s you've told me a compressed 4k's coming. With S-Log profiles that should work pretty nicely. You're clearly ahead of my slow, slow brain today!

April 3, 2014 at 10:33AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Adrian

not yet, they are proclaiming a "popular compressed codec" is coming in a firmware very soon, probably NAB. I'm guessing it's prores.

April 3, 2014 at 11:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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alex

You'd have to dump Raw into your Mac (PC?) and then convert it into 4K ProRes there. There's software for it but it does take a bit of time, as I'd read.

April 3, 2014 at 6:26PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

That's quite nice looking.

April 3, 2014 at 8:03AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Natt

I'm still a bit confused on the ProRes option. If it only records up to 30p then does it handle the slow-mo? I'm seriously considering the 7Q but if I can't record the over-crank in ProRes and only RAW I'm not sure that's what I need.

April 3, 2014 at 8:17AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Devin

60FPS through 240 FPS is 2K raw only.
4K raw will do 24FPS through 60FPS.
The 4K-to-HD ProRes option only does 24, 25 and 30FPS.

Convergent Design says the FPS/resolution combinations will increase with firmware updates. Wrote this off the top of my head, pretty sure this is the package as it stands right now.

April 3, 2014 at 3:59PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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According to Convergent, 60fps 10 bit Pro-Res 422 is coming soon. They going to try and get the Pro-res HD up to 240fps, but no promises on that. But they said they are trying as we speak.

April 3, 2014 at 4:41PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene Sung (non-...

The fs700 is the only camera on the market that evolved into a completely different camera as time went on thanks to the odyssey 7q. They're not even done yet, we can expect 12bit 444 off the 4k sensor next round of upgrades. I bought it a year and half ago, looks like it'll be around a little while longer, it has more than I need. (never thought I'd ever say that about the fs700)

April 3, 2014 at 10:39AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Anthony Marino

So this setup puts the FS700 in the same feature/price point as the Scarlet right? I love the fact you can unlock so much potential in the camera! Which some other manufacturers would adopt a similar attitude.

April 3, 2014 at 10:41AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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sean

Not really. Sony is cheaper (total package) and has a lot more rez. Scarlet can not give supersampled 1080P output and 4K is only 30 fps.

With FS700+7q you simply get vastly superior output from Sony.

April 3, 2014 at 4:17PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Juhan-i

The one thing I do love about RED is Red Code where you can change the compression on the RAW. I wish you could do that with the 7Q. However, the FS700 is much more versatile than the Scarlet. I think if you main goal is to only shoot 4K RAW, than Scarlet is the way to go. But for a more flexible option, FS700.

April 3, 2014 at 4:45PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene Sung (non-...

The FS700 + 7Q combo is amazing. It's such a beast for around $12K for the combo. Art Adams and Convergent have shot some charts and the FS700 RAW is around 14 stops, 13+ useable of DR. The 10 bit image is just phenomenal as is the 4K RAW. Zero moire, zero aliasing, super clean with S-Log style highlights. P Bloom said he was blown away by the 10 bit 422 Pro-Res and is probably the most detailed HD image he has ever seen. I'm so happy with mine. I love it.

Here's a couple things I've shot with the 7Q and S-Log

1) 4K RAW to HD finish macro project. Lot of resizing and cropping.
https://vimeo.com/90512101

2) Camera test in Chinatown of 2K RAW
https://vimeo.com/85786185

3) Initial 2K RAW test - some 240fps stuff
https://vimeo.com/83642889

4) S-Log 2 internal AVCHD, non-7Q
https://vimeo.com/75311478

5) IMO, the FS700 is the most unique camera for the price. The 240fps just allows you to do insane beauty work. Some of this stuff was shot at 480fps. You just can't get this vibe with any other camera around this price.
https://vimeo.com/74873629

As for rigging, the FS700 is much more ergonomic with the 7Q. Here's how I do mine. It's compact, super minimal and perfect for shooting handheld. Just replace the Small HD with the 7Q. It's ironic because with the 7Q, it's actually better that the camera LCD is no top.

http://www.builtbyugene.com/blog/blog1_rigs.html

If you own an FS700, it's a no brainer as the camera finally lives to it's potential.

April 3, 2014 at 4:36PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene Sung (non-...

I actually REALLY like the configuration you have here. Granted, it's not far off from some of the other designs but you managed to cut back on the number of cables and accessories enough that I'd consider using an FS700.

April 3, 2014 at 6:24PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Coty

Hey Coty, yes, it's a very light and minimal rig and that's what's nice about it. Yet, you can still throw it onto the shoulder if needed. If you are primarily a shoulder shooter, this is NOT the best solution. It's designed so you can really throw the camera around. I shoot a ton of handheld, so I really need something like this. I shoot a lot from my waist and low angles, so huge shoulder based rigs are not good for my style, as you can barely lift some of those setups.

April 3, 2014 at 7:45PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene Sung (non-...

Yeah, I like being able to go from shoulder to low angles quickly.

April 3, 2014 at 8:55PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Coty

You mentioned 480fps...with the 7Q, is it still 1920x540 or full HD now?

Thanks

April 3, 2014 at 7:31PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Justin

Hey Justin, It's kind of 720p-ish on the 480fps. However, if you zoom in and do a shallow focus, it actually look pretty dang good. BUT, 480fps can only be done with internal AVCHD, and not on the 7Q. But dang, the 7Q already does so much, so I'll let it slide :)

April 3, 2014 at 7:40PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene Sung (non-...

http://vimeo.com/89854882

Download the original file and be amazed :)

April 3, 2014 at 4:48PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Juhan-i

By the way, when you look at the 4K footage shot on Sony's 2013 models, one must wonder how soon it'll be that an ILC model is out.
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The below video is shot with AX 1 (it says "AX 100" but there's no such unit in Sony's lineup) and it looks gorgeous, a "consumer" product that retails for ~ $4,500 in the US.
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRSYYcElT5M ]
.

April 4, 2014 at 12:47AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

ops... AX 100 is already out .... $2K on Amazon ...

April 4, 2014 at 12:50AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Sony's introducing a new DSLM full frame (!!!) 4K camera on Sunday at the NAB.

April 4, 2014 at 6:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

"4K for anyone" is the new Sony slogan. Obviously, this naturally leads to development where F5 will get high quality internal 4K recording...

Resulting a camera that blows Canon C300 and Red Scarlet "low price" models away.

Also, there will new ENG camera system for broadcasting people based on F5/F55 series.
Oh, and paid upgrade for full Prores support.

April 5, 2014 at 7:58AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Juhan-i

Ah, and the latest rumours : new Sony DSLR, announced tomorrow will take many people by surprise with two things... Individual photosites are rather huge (=incredible low light) and there is full 4K output from the camera...

April 5, 2014 at 8:13AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Juhan-i

Both Panasonic and Sony seem to be agreeing that a low-end 4K camera will have a fairly average - though, by no means, useless - internal 4K recording and a "clean" HDMI out. XAVCS can go as low as 60 Mbps and as high as 150 Mbps for 60p. Hopefully, it'll be at least 100 Mbps for 24p like AX1 rather than AX 100, which has a horrible moire. Presumably, HDMI out will be 10-bit for Sony as well. 12 MP's with large photo sites is an an interesting concept - it still works as a photo unit but allows 4K without any pixel binning (and thus lower processing requirements, which lets Sony keep the same slender mirrorless body style ) while giving a better performance in low light. Curiously, it will have a third different sensor on A7/R/S models, albeit with the same E-mount. All both cams are waiting for is a portable HDMI 4K external recorder (BMD has a rack unit).

April 5, 2014 at 8:38AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

And no internal 4K on A7s, only via the 4-2-2 HDMI to an external recorder.. (Future) GH4 owners can sleep a little easier.

April 6, 2014 at 6:12PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Great low light camera though. Think we gotta wait for the a99 for internal 4k

April 6, 2014 at 6:19PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Anthony Marino

It's surprising they didn't supply it with the AX 100 like XAVC-S at even 60 Mbps.
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Here's the new AJA Cion camera. $9K and a lot of connectivity.
https://twitter.com/BrownEnvelope/status/452919513055784960/photo/1

April 6, 2014 at 6:29PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

i m always using sony digi video camera s......

July 30, 2014 at 11:14AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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ganesh belchada...