Many were hoping that the recently-announced iPhone 6 would be able to shoot 4K video. Although that didn't happen, a new app looks to bring high quality 4K video capture, editing, and delivery to iPhone users everywhere, for a steep price, that is.
Here's a brief sample of what it can do.
Video is no longer available: www.youtube.com/watch?v=LADJw7rvQZk
The app's creator, Michael Zaletel, thinks Vizzywig 4K not only has a place in the hands and hearts of independent filmmakers and film students, but also photojournalists who need to shoot high quality videos and photos at the same time. While the app might have some potential for the latter group (photojournalists), I have a very hard time seeing this app take off in any capacity with people who create content for a living or even for fun, especially now that a few different quality 4K cameras can be had for $1700 or less. When you add in the fact that a single second of Vizzywig 4K video will eat up 72MB of precious disk space on your phone, it seems like a sure-fire way to fill up your internal storage in just minutes.
Currently the app is only available for iOS 7 -- and not the newly-released iOS 8 due to a difference in the way the new OS handles photo bursts - and it requires a 32GB or 64GB model of the iPhone 5s. Vizzywig 4K is now available in the app store.
Your Comment
174 Comments
Imagine if Magic Lantern had charged a price like this. Of course ML is about hack, not an app. But the question is... if the iPhone's hardware can do it, why the hell this option is not default?
September 18, 2014 at 12:11PM
Probably because it's rolling shutter HELL. And didn't pass quality standards...
September 18, 2014 at 12:13PM
The problem is there will be people willing to pay US$ 999 for this.
I can already imagine the dialogue:
- Look my latest 4K video... in my iPhone screen.
September 18, 2014 at 12:17PM
Those people deserve what they get.
September 18, 2014 at 12:19PM
Multiple copies have been sold in 5 different countries.
September 18, 2014 at 5:15PM
The primary reason Vizzywig 4K is compelling is because there really is NO OTHER WAY to shoot, edit and upload to YouTube 4K from a phone. Vizzywig is a full-blown 4K multi-camera studio. That's right, you can simultaneously record and live switch from up to 16 iPhone 5S's and live switch in real-time, relevant 4K still frames are transferred from each remote camera to the master device and you can edit, add transitions, background music, titles, lower thirds and scrolling credits (all 4K) and upload to YouTube in minutes plus archive the entire still image sequence for future codecs.
September 18, 2014 at 5:21PM
> there really is NO OTHER WAY to shoot, edit and upload to YouTube 4K from a phone
Except for the piles of android phones that record 4k video. E.g. Acer Liquid S2
Samsung Galaxy Note 3
LG G Pro 2
Sony Xperia Z2
Samsung Galaxy S5
What a load of shit.
September 18, 2014 at 5:39PM
None of those devices have a full 4K editing suite and workflow. I said there is no other way to shoot AND edit from a phone.
September 18, 2014 at 7:30PM
do you have a desktop app for combining iphone and mac?
September 18, 2014 at 11:30PM
Because there is a lot more to a complete 4K workflow than burst photos. There are only two apps on Android and iOS combined that are capable of capturing 24 full-sensor-resolution photos per second. Both are made by i4software.
September 18, 2014 at 5:14PM
72mb per frame...thats why I wouldn't make it a standard.
September 18, 2014 at 11:16PM
72mb per second, about 2-3mb per frame, but yes, still VERY high.
September 22, 2014 at 10:09AM
Oops:)
October 3, 2014 at 12:24AM
Eh. Inherent image stabilization issues easily seen on the left in the last shot. Shutter speed issues a likely problem as well, which is why you see static shots and such little motion in the test. Interesting trick, but it is just a trick, and not one I see people paying for other than for bragging purposes. The developer is probably hoping to get just a few customers out of it and make some nice cash off the price tag.
September 18, 2014 at 12:11PM
Yeah but those iPhone lens flares are so beautiful in 4K. However, it may just be the brilliant editing which makes this footage look so good.
September 18, 2014 at 12:41PM
Sorry, this was a moment of immaturity...
September 18, 2014 at 1:03PM
Shutter speed issues are a problem on iOS 7. All of our demo videos were shot with a very high shutter speed. The only real solution to that on a fixed aperture camera is ND filtration. Moondog Labs (who makes the Anamorphic Lens) is building us a custom filter mount so we can add ND. On iOS 8, we can use a 1/48th shutter but ND will still be required because you cannot dial ISO down enough in daylight.
September 18, 2014 at 5:18PM
$1,000 for an app? App-arently these guys don't understand that you make money with apps by getting a lot of people to buy them, not by making them so expensive that only an idiot with a trust fund (and an Apple obsession) would buy them. This is especially insane when you consider that you can buy a full featured Panasonic LX100 4K camera for $800, or just buy a different smart phone that already does 4K...
Basically this is the stupidest cool App I've ever seen. The good news is that someone will come along and make another app that does the same thing and sell it for $1.99...
September 18, 2014 at 12:12PM, Edited September 18, 12:12PM
Uhm. Don't know what to say here. I have created over 20 different apps across four different platforms with gross sales approaching $4 Million and over 12 million total users. Yes, you can buy an LX100 4K camera for $800 or even an Xperia Z2 or LG G3 for $500 if you don't mind heavy compression and footage that cannot be graded in a studio or printed to film. Vizzywig 4K is a stills workflow that future proofs your footage. It's not hard to stabilize, slow down with Twixtor or add motion blur in After Effects if you start with pristine, raw still frames with no motion blur or heavy H.264 motion compression baked in.
September 18, 2014 at 5:25PM
Odd. A company "with gross sales approaching $4 Million" can't afford to make a decent video promoting their awesome 4K video app that purports itself to be "a full-blown 4K multi-camera studio"
Instead we get goofy hipster loitering on a roof... 'snort'
It would be hilarious if you weren't so serious Michael.
...actually I take that back. That's exactly why it's hilarious.
September 18, 2014 at 9:25PM
I'm sorry that your app isn't being very well received by from this article but that video absolutely does not purport a company that has grossed $4 million from doing anything.
It doesn't show any signs of video experience or even any effort. I'm still slightly under the impression that you're entirely joking with us. Are you?
September 19, 2014 at 9:34AM, Edited September 19, 9:34AM
If I were a millionaire app designer I would definitely spend my days trolling the comments section of an article about my insanely over-priced app... Because you know, with millions of dollars what else would I do with my time?... LOL!
September 19, 2014 at 3:42PM
Stunning visuals! Pure Cinema bliss…
September 18, 2014 at 12:37PM
4k video on iPhone... And the demo video they shoot is a dude walking around a patio set to country music... oh yeah! take my 999.99 dollars!
September 18, 2014 at 12:45PM, Edited September 18, 12:45PM
We could have shot a high-end flashy promo video like most camera manufacturers do. We've all seen those and then been disappointed with the results. I prefer to just shoot average stuff and let users decide for themselves. The still images speak for themselves.
[IMG]http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/vizzywig-4k-7.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/vizzywig-4k-8.jpg[/IMG]
September 18, 2014 at 5:44PM
FYI, Those images aren't working for me, saying it contains errors. (yes I removed the image tags)
Anyway those flashy promo videos are important and serve a purpose, they let us see how the performance is in different situations.
Does your app allow shutterspeed, aperture and ISO selection? I haven't read about it, but any serious filmmaking app needs at least those IMO
September 18, 2014 at 7:25PM
It will in iOS 8 once Apple fixes the known bug in camera capture.
September 18, 2014 at 7:31PM, Edited September 18, 7:31PM
Yeaaaaa, I'd pay 3 dollars for that.
September 18, 2014 at 12:53PM
IF I had an iPhone, which I don't, I'd probably pay up to $20 for it. But no more than that.
September 18, 2014 at 1:06PM
You would only pay $3 for an app that let's you capture 4K stills at 24fps from multiple cameras at the same time, live-switch that 4K session, edit it on your iPhone, add 4K titles, 4K lower-thirds, 4K scrolling credits, 4K transitions and add background music, edit audio and export still image sequences or H.264 4K video to YouTube or Vimeo in minutes?
What would you pay for a cheeseburger?
September 18, 2014 at 5:46PM
Your smart comments aren't endearing people to you.
€1000 is an absurd price. As a freelancer who buys gear only when it'll make me money back I can't see how anyone will make money using this app.
September 18, 2014 at 9:33PM
Michael, I would pay like TEN TIMES that much for all those capabilities... Maybe... But really no one on earth needs to do all that stuff on their phone... So really I probably wouldn't pay more than $10 for it...
September 19, 2014 at 3:46PM
This is ridiculous. You can get a BMPC or an upcoming LX100 for the price of that app.
September 18, 2014 at 1:00PM
Holy crap! I know that kid! Hahaha
September 18, 2014 at 1:08PM
Video looks jittery to me. No way would I pay a grand for that crappy look
September 18, 2014 at 1:23PM
Shutter Speed is about 1/1000 or higher. We can add motion blur in After Effects if wanted. iOS 8 will allow us to set the shutter speed to 1/48th where it should be but then we will need ND filtration and probably IR filtration.
September 18, 2014 at 5:49PM
Stuttery.
September 18, 2014 at 1:29PM
Its more than iphone's own cost.. :-O
i have a 5s and cannot buy this
September 18, 2014 at 1:31PM
Who does this guy think he is? What a moron. MoviePro already shoots at 3k. Ultrakam shoots at 2.5k. Either of those companies will reverse engineer what this app does in a matter of months. What a ridiculous sales strategy. A few thousand dollars from a handful of idiots when he could make thousands more if he priced it under $10. An app made for idiots by idiots. I would absolutely love to hear Michael Zaletel's reasoning for this pricing strategy. I'm certain it's hilariously deluded.
September 18, 2014 at 2:01PM, Edited September 18, 2:01PM
Gee thanks Tony!
MoviePro does not shoot at 3K. Try it yourself. Neither does Ultrakam. Those companies don't have to reverse engineer, they can figure out how to do it. But they will all tell you that there is a LOT more to building the entire 4K stills image edit workflow than meets the eye. Recording and Editing are completely different animals. This is why you can't compare Vizzywig 4K to all those other inexpensive 4K cameras. One, they aren't editors and two, they are compressing the heck out of whatever they are capturing. We preserve every single beautiful still image.
September 18, 2014 at 5:52PM
Now you're resorting to lying? Scroll down on the iTunes page genius:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/moviepro-video-recorder-pause/id54710114...
"Record in 3072x1728 @30fps resolution on iPhone 5s at 120 Mbps bit rate"
Shall we take a look at Ultrakam now?
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ultrakam-pro.-professional/id824589326?mt=8
Wow. For somebody pimping a $999 app,you sure seem scared of the competition. To the point lying. Simply astonishing the hubris you have.
September 18, 2014 at 9:10PM, Edited September 18, 9:10PM
$1,000 Are these guys out of their minds? I guess they're just not interested in making any sales; heck if they priced this at even $10 they could potentially make hundreds of thousands if not more. All they did is completely decimate their market potential. It's still an iPhone lens/sensor after all. Ridiculous.
September 18, 2014 at 2:03PM
It's selling pretty well. Did you know there are over 20,000,000 people in the world with a net worth of $1,000,000 or more? Most of them own at least one iOS device.
September 18, 2014 at 5:54PM
What makes you think it's selling well?
September 18, 2014 at 7:43PM, Edited September 18, 7:43PM
Basically by the time I get my iPhone 6+ somebody will have reverse engineered this app into a nice affordable app under $5. Cool!
September 18, 2014 at 2:18PM
The minute you hear of someone doing this, please message me because I want to grab it.
I like the idea of shooting such high quality on an iPhone because you can get in and out of places undetected. An iPhone has the potential to truly be a mini-studio in your pocket, but this app price, no matter how great it may or may not be is really quite high for my tastes.
You're right, Tony. It's only a matter of time before someone comes up with a $5 app version of this.
A better marketing idea, would be for this company to practically give it away but only allow you to shoot X minutes total or for only 30 days. Let you fall in love with it, so you cannot live without it and then allow those people to pay full price.
September 19, 2014 at 8:36AM
I can hate all I want but if there is just a 3,000 rich suckers from the entire iphone population then this kid already paid for his ferrari and life-long lap dance subscription ^_^
Amirite?
September 18, 2014 at 2:19PM
That's exactly what that guy is thinking. I would bet... well, I'd bet $999 on it. ;)
I've been in the video camera app game and unfortunately it doesn't quite work like that.
September 18, 2014 at 2:34PM
Our flagship app, Vizzywig has been priced at $19.99 and then $29.99 for over 2 years now and has always been among the top grossing photo and video apps. When all of our competitors dropped to $1.99 or free, we held our price. Quality and customer service wins out.
September 18, 2014 at 5:56PM
Really? Never noticed it. Since you've already lied here once. I see no reason to believe you now.
September 18, 2014 at 9:12PM
Why don't you use Appster to check the top grossing charts worldwide for Vizzywig and Fast Camera Tony?
September 19, 2014 at 6:02PM
Well, there's quite a bit of difference between $30 and $1000... Does your 4K application really have 33 times the value of the regular version?
September 19, 2014 at 6:51PM
On Big Bang Theory, the guys made a useless app that thought they could sell so they could be millionaires=) Since only about 20 guys would find it useful, they needed to sell it for how much?? hehe.
September 18, 2014 at 2:19PM
it looks like these guys are from my home town, puerto rico. nicely done. one or three sells will be enough for them to cover expenses, get new gear and start making shortfilms, hahaha. its this the most expensive app on itunes?
September 18, 2014 at 2:58PM
Unless they did all the coding and UI design themselves there's no way in hell they have covered expenses. Even if they did do it all themselves they spent a lot more time than 3k worth of work writing code.
September 18, 2014 at 3:44PM
This is a great idea, but after seeing the example it's no where near worth $1000; really, $100 would be only barely, maybe, if you're drunk, acceptable.
Also, at such a prohibitive price, they could easily only sell a handful of copies, and then it hits the torrent scene.
I'd love to see this naturally implemented, but then why stop there, any phone that can do this, could handle high fps video at HD.
September 18, 2014 at 3:01PM, Edited September 18, 3:01PM
Is this a prank? Seriously?
September 18, 2014 at 3:07PM
I'm running out and purchasing an iPhone6 just to get this program. Granted its $1000 for the program and $800 for the iPhone but its Apple! I mean where else can I shoot glorious 4k for $1800 in 2014? Just need to look for a matte box that fits the iphone and I'm all set.
September 18, 2014 at 3:07PM
It's not about shooting 4K. It's about shooting 4K raw stills at 24fps and being able to edit in a stills workflow all the way through to final H.264 4K video export and upload to YouTube on a single mobile device while preserving the still image sequence for archival long-term.
September 18, 2014 at 6:04PM
You sold me! I'll take two please.
September 18, 2014 at 9:05PM
Can nofilmschool get some sort of interview or comment from these guys regarding the reasoning of their pricing delusions? Seriously you guys can use some comedy here.
September 18, 2014 at 3:46PM
Nevermind ...listen to this clown:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/16/theres-a-999-99-iphone-app-an...
September 18, 2014 at 4:03PM
"Moron?", "Clown"? Wow Tony, I'd hate to get on your bad side. :)
September 18, 2014 at 6:02PM
Usually, I'm not this worked up, but the hubris on this guy is astounding.
September 18, 2014 at 8:59PM
Hah! I didn't even realize I was talking to the clown himself. At least you waded in here to address your absolutely mental pricing strategy.
Still... you're rationalizations are just as absurd as your pricing.
September 18, 2014 at 9:18PM, Edited September 18, 9:18PM
"He added that the company will be keeping the price of the app at $999.99 for at least a year, thinking that they might change it sometime down the road depending on advancements and competitors."
HAH! Good luck buddy.
September 18, 2014 at 4:05PM, Edited September 18, 4:05PM
Are you kidding me? This was in the apps description: TheBlaze.com - There’s a $999.99 iPhone App — and the Creator Tells Us Why They Wanted to Price It Even Higher: "it could make watching that 1st birthday party a decade after it was filmed that much more enjoyable due to better quality." -Liz Klimas (TheBlaze)
Guess what webpage I'm never going to read.
September 18, 2014 at 4:47PM
A 1000 bucks? But it doesn't surprise me with all the 4k whores around. They'll probably make out like bandits.
September 18, 2014 at 4:59PM
The Panasonic LUMIX DMC-FZ1000, a $900 20 megapixel camera, shoots 4K UHD video at 100mb/s, has a 16X zoom lens, records audio AND... and... you can talk on your iOS8 iPhone while you shoot. You also have that extra warm feeling of not having been screwed by a certain Michael Zaletel.
September 18, 2014 at 5:50PM
1. 100mb/s is not 576mb/s
2. It is not a still images workflow
3. It lacks 4K editing.
September 18, 2014 at 5:59PM, Edited September 18, 5:59PM
4. Your app still isn't worth $999 for the reasons above.
September 18, 2014 at 9:15PM
Personally, I think recording and editing 576mb/s footage on an iPhone would be a NIGHTMARE, no matter how slick the software is. What’s the point of editing if you can only work from a couple minutes worth of footage at a time? If I wanted footage of that quality, I’d want to be able to save it to a large Thunderbolt RAID and edit it on my computer, not my phone.
September 24, 2014 at 12:52AM
There's Ultrakam4K for $4.99 and UltrakamPro (free) . Please!
September 18, 2014 at 7:14PM
Those are both capturing video and upscaling. They are NOT capturing still images at full sensor resolution.
September 18, 2014 at 7:33PM
Upscaling? I'd like some proof of that.
September 18, 2014 at 9:01PM, Edited September 18, 9:01PM
Please take as much money out of me as you can, because I so want that 4k app so I can be up there with the big movie makers. 4 years later...everyone raves about 8k. My 4k is so backward. Please take as much money out of me as you can, because I so want that 8k app so I can be up there with the big movie makers. 4 years later.....sorry I'm broke. P....off.
September 18, 2014 at 7:15PM
Aside from all the hating directed at the makers of the App, the actual images don't look that good. Jittery motion, and the sky is completely blown out in some of the images. If it can't produce smooth motion and a flat image I'm not sure how much use it is, despite being able to "edit 4K footage on your phone". Also the argument that 'now you get to shoot video and stills at the same time' is not a massive draw - framing a shot for video/motion is not necessarily the same shot you might take if it were stills... Anyway, best of luck to them. I'll stick with my crappy 1K DSLR footage which looks worth $1000.
September 18, 2014 at 7:26PM
See the images and thread here on RedUser. I have been an active member of RedUser for over 6 years and have personally owned every camera RED has ever made including the EPIC Dragon.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?121470-Vizzywig-4K-Footage-(Anamorphic-Lens-Swift-M3-Stabilizer)
September 18, 2014 at 7:35PM
http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/vizzywig-4k-7.jpg
September 18, 2014 at 7:38PM
Wouldn't this 4K capture quickly overheat the phone/sensor? Is it just meant for short sequence capture? What would 60sec of footage weigh approximately?
September 18, 2014 at 8:04PM
We have shot up to two minutes with no problems. Two minutes is about 5GB.
September 18, 2014 at 8:32PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQRBFkSNS4Q
Watch the video above. Motion from this looks absolutely terrible. I don't even think its just the high shutter, it looks like 18 fps. I'm sure the creator will say I am incorrect, but then explain why none of the footage looks like anything shot with a true video camera. I'm sorry but this seems like a complete joke/scam.
September 18, 2014 at 8:16PM
Shutter speed and the resultant motion blur make more difference than you realize. However, it's more about stabilization. See this example, it's still high shutter speed but was shot with a Swift M3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmiEfP3CSMw&list=UUfjvhmt2vQ7X4nUStdBmblw
September 18, 2014 at 8:35PM
With the API's currently available you simply cannot control the shutter speed in any iOS photo app. Probably never will be. The iris is fixed. Exposure is controlled by a variable push/pull of shutter and iso. Both out of the end users control. It can be locked once set, but that's it. Same with focus. Manual control in these apps really isn't true manual control. It is a compromised trade off at best. A coding hack. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know am I?
For those reasons alone it's preposterous to charge $999 for a video app designed for "Professionals". No camera app in iOS will ever have real manual control and you know this Michael. That's why your pricing is absurd and your ethics seem highly dubious. There is no true professional photo/video app that can be made for iOS.
September 18, 2014 at 10:00PM
Looks like you will be able to control shutter in iOS8 my bad. Doesn't change the fact that $999 is still and absurd ethically questionable price.
September 18, 2014 at 10:17PM
I don't have a problem with charging a grand for an app. I'm sure there will be many productions that will have use for the iPhone as a $600 throw-away 4K action cam. Of course, if it gets busted, it's not a simple matter of popping out an SD card to retrieve the footage.
September 19, 2014 at 5:07AM
Absurd. You'd pay $600 for the phone and $1000 for the app that's $1600 for one barely controllable crash cam. You can get a GH4 or 2 even smaller LX100's.
I would never work with a producer that thought that sort of spending was justified. I don't care if it's a series of jpegs you can't change the sensor or the lens. which is limited to say the least.
September 19, 2014 at 12:57PM
Frame rate looks awkward to me
September 18, 2014 at 9:24PM
Michael,
I've spent this entire comment section raking you over the coals. It's been fun no doubt, but I'm going to get serious for a moment.
I hope you will listen because I'm being earnest right now. I'll be the first to admit your app is brilliant. so my kudos to you. However, even you admit that it can be reverse engineered. Which means that it will be. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody did it just to spite you. I think you and I both know how difficult patents are in this field. So you don't have a chance, from a legal standpoint, of stopping another 4k video app like yours from coming out. Simply put it will happen. When it does it will come in for A LOT less. Exponentially so. Then you will see every opportunity to make money on this app evaporate over night. You simply won't recoup your cost for this app from now until the time it takes for somebody to put out a competitive app. You and I both know this no matter how much you'll claim otherwise in the comments.
Drop the price to something reasonable now while there's some heat on this. Eat a little crow, then sit back and rake in some money. You stand to lose a lot in this endeavor.
Take my advice.
...or don't. I'll still enjoy watching this app flame out, but you heard it here first. Good luck
September 18, 2014 at 9:38PM
I think Michael thought over the price very carefully. For buyers of his app 1000$ is peanuts, those people spend that kind of money on a bottle of wine. It is strange how much hate comments he received. Blame Apple for allowing such high prices of apps in the first place but that is stupid too. If it is too expensive don't buy it, simple as that. Are you people beaching about everything out of your reach?
September 18, 2014 at 10:55PM
No he didn't think about this carefully. That's exactly what I pointed out in the post above. Having a bunch of one per center dilettantes as your customer base for an app will get you nowhere. I don't care what he sells it for. Hell, I say let him try and sell it for more. Like I said I'll sit back and enjoy the show.
September 19, 2014 at 1:00PM
To state the obvious, every app is not for everybody. Some people will purchase this and like it.
September 18, 2014 at 11:13PM
So this app shoots 4K, which is 12 MP, from an image sequence produced with images from the iPhone 6's 8 MP camera? Is there interpolation for upscaling in software?
September 19, 2014 at 12:23AM
Never mind my question. =) I was coming from my m4/3 sensor proportions, where a width of 4k requires a height of 3k and thus 12MP. However 3840x2160 = 8.3 MP and 4096x2160 = 8.8 MP, so the iPhone cameras should be close enough provided that they shoot in their native proportions.
September 19, 2014 at 5:53AM
Resolution is about much more than just sensor resolution. How well is the lens resolving detail, what is the micron size of the pixels on the sensor, what compression algorithm is being used on the raw data coming from the sensor.
You can compare still images from Vizzywig 4K with still frames from ANY 4K camera under $5,000 and it will show more effective resolution.
It's not what the sensor is capable of capturing that matters, it's what the lens, plus sensor, plus data path is capable of preserving to disk. If you are shooting an independent film, please do not even think of using an inexpensive 4K camera that uses heavy H.264 compression at 4MB/sec data rate. Either use a Red One, a Scarlet or if you cannot afford those, use Vizzywig 4K on an iPhone 5S. You can even send the still image sequence out to print 35mm film!
September 19, 2014 at 7:01AM
Hold on, did you just imply that your app turns the iPhone into a viable alternative to RED cameras? Come on, man. No individual in their right mind is ever going to believe a statement like that unless you provide some kind of definitive video test. As valid as some of your technical points are, you're just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole in this comment section.
September 19, 2014 at 12:18PM
"Resolution is about much more than just sensor resolution. How well is the lens resolving detail, what is the micron size of the pixels on the sensor, what compression algorithm is being used on the raw data coming from the sensor.
You can compare still images from Vizzywig 4K with still frames from ANY 4K camera under $5,000 and it will show more effective resolution."
Wow. Michael I assumed you were deluded, but now you've gone and proved it. Some how in your fevered desperation to paint this app as worth the silly $999 price tag, you've convinced yourself the sensor lens combo with full jpeg capture is going to top the image I can get from a GH4 with a 21mm Zeiss?
Get a grip sir. You're losing credibility FAST!
September 19, 2014 at 1:07PM
There is a lot of hate out there. Its his software. His sweat. He can sell it for what ever he likes. Good luck to him. If there is a demand for it, he'll make his cash. If not, he'll have to drop his price. While the price is way out of the range of most people, myself included, the app does have its uses in certain situations. If you make travel documentaries for the net, for example, then you can shoot, edit and upload on the same device. In 4k! How awesome would that be. If I had an iphone and if the app was (a lot) cheaper then i'd be very interested.
September 19, 2014 at 12:38AM, Edited September 19, 12:38AM
If I am doing my math right that is 4.32gb per minute.
September 19, 2014 at 4:51AM
Vizzywig 4K allows you to set the JPG compression quality level. If you set it to 80, it's about 72MB/second. It you set it to 100, it's about 144MB/second. But if you set it to 60, it's less.
September 19, 2014 at 6:49AM
Why would anyone pay 1000 dollars for an app when they can get a GH4 for 1500 dollars? Cool app, but the price tag should be around 50 usd max...
September 19, 2014 at 4:53AM
The GH4 is recording heavily compressed H.264 video like most other affordable 4K cameras. That footage is really hard to grade. Vizzywig 4K is capturing individual raw still frame photos giving you many more options and much more control in post.
Also, the GH4 is not a 4K editor. You'd still have to buy an iMac or Laptop and Adobe Premiere. It's nowhere near as portable, it costs much more to fly on a drone, put underwater or stabilize with a gyro. It lacks an accelerometer and gyroscope for post stabilization and it cannot record GPS or compass metadata.
September 19, 2014 at 6:54AM
Garbage in is garbage out. Not a snowballs chance in hell that the lens sensor combo of an iPhone can best a GH4 with a decent lens. No way in hell it will best and LX100 either. DOesn't matter if you're capturing sequential jpegs.
You're just pulling stuff out of you @ss at this point man.
September 19, 2014 at 1:11PM
I dont think any professional work would be edited on an iphone. Also the footage you presented does not even come close to the image quality of GH4. And also GH4 is a camera not an app...
September 19, 2014 at 3:47PM, Edited September 19, 3:47PM
4k for $1K and you get to record a whole 25 minutes on the 128G model. Good Luck.
September 19, 2014 at 6:56AM
It's not just 4K. It's 4K still image sequences. Why does everyone keep comparing crappy, noisy, ungradeable, 4MB/sec H.264 4K video to our incredible breakthrough in still image 4K workflows?
We make it very easy to offload image sequence folders to a MacBook.
September 19, 2014 at 8:45AM
Did I mention you can print the still frame sequence to 35mm Film and it will look amazing? That's right, not 16mm film, 35mm film. Try doing that with extracted frames from 4MB/sec H.264 video.
September 19, 2014 at 8:47AM
I looked at the still you posted. The one with the girl on the stairs. That would't hold up in a 2k projection theater.
September 19, 2014 at 1:14PM
Hyperbole. Like I said. Garbage in is garbage out. I'd take 24mbps Canon C100 footage over your apps garbage any day of the week.
What you can't seem to get through you head Michael is that you've made software. That's it! You have no control over the limited hardware in the phone. That's why people are laughing at your pricing. No matter what coding you achieve to get your 4K it's always going to be bottle necked by the hardware. You're pricing for an actual camera, which your "incredible breakthrough" simply isn't.
Get over yourself. Come down to the earth with the rest of us.
September 19, 2014 at 1:20PM
Thousand bucks? Yeah, I look forward to downloading a pirated copy in the near future.
September 19, 2014 at 8:32AM, Edited September 19, 8:32AM
Maybe Michael can show up on location and help explain to the client why I'm shooting his live event with eight iPhones. It's interesting, but no professional is going to even consider this. Just a toy for people with a lot of money and no sense(which seems to be the demographic the app's aimed at, judging by Michael's crusading so far).
September 19, 2014 at 8:45AM
Maybe you can explain to the client why you needed to bring $200,000 worth of 4K equipment and 8 guys to shoot and live switch 4K when you could have instead installed Vizzywig 4K on 8 used iPhone 5S's that cost $300 each under a single iTunes account that has a $1,000 Vizzywig license and shot it and switched it by yourself on an iPad.
September 19, 2014 at 8:51AM
Clearly you don't care about filmmaking or helping aspiring filmmakers. Who can afford to throw away 1,000 dollars (the price of Davinci Resolve for God sake) on an app that hasn't even had all the kinks worked through. You have to understand that all the backlash you're receiving is definitely warranted - pricing an app like this can mean only one thing - you're a greedy bastard trying to make a quick dollar. Even 100 dollars would be too much for this app. Like everyone said, you would be so much better off pricing it at 5 or 10 bucks and gaining a huge fan base, instead of marketing it to trust fund kids and millionaires.
September 19, 2014 at 9:20AM
There are lots of people that cannot afford a $1,500 camera, $1,000 worth of lenses, a $1,500 MacBook Pro and $300 Final Cut Pro for editing that already own an iPhone 5S and would save $3,300 buying Vizzywig 4K. It's not the camera, it's the high-res still images workflow that's worth $1,000.
Please tell me one single equipment and workflow purchase option for aspiring film school students that would enable them to create a 35mm print ready short film for less than $1,000.
Look, last month we launched Prizmia for GoPro which was endorsed by the founder of the primary GoPro user forum here:
http://goprouser.freeforums.org/awesome-new-interface-app-prizmia-for-go...
It's the BEST solution for GoPro users and much better than the GoPro app. We decided to price the app at $4.99 to make it "accessible" to everyone. It sold a few hundred copies with the initial press and then fizzled down to 10 sales a day. That app cost us a fortune and 18 months to build. I've tried low price strategies. Ask the other 1 million app developers out there how much money they are making. I have three apps that have grossed over $700,000 and one that has grossed over $1.5 Million. Don't you think I study this stuff in depth and evaluate every alternative?
But heh, maybe a giveaway contest here on NoFilmSchool is in order to help someone that can't afford the $4,300 in gear OR the $1,000 app make a 4K short film?
September 19, 2014 at 10:31AM
Again, you keep ignoring the simple facts. The hardware is limited. It doesn't matter if you were able to get a straight up RAW workflow.
GARBAGE IN=GARBAGE OUT. Does that make it clear enough?
...and again you brag about accomplishments elsewhere. Stick to the topic Which is your ridiculously priced app.
September 19, 2014 at 1:25PM
So you didn't understand your market and now you're going to make an app for even less people. Brilliant sir!
September 19, 2014 at 1:28PM
I see a single timeline in the editor mode on your product page, so you have no business mentioning a real editing suite in the same paragraph as your app. You also make it sound like an iPhone is somehow capable of transmitting a 72MB/s signal to an iPad, and that iPad is capable of receiving twelve different feeds and live switching between them. And it's all gonna be high quality 4k worthy of a 35mm print, even though all we've seen so far are three locked-down shots that still manage to show rolling shutter artifacts/glitching.
Tell ya what, you give me this app for free, and I'll trade you this deed to the Brooklyn bridge. Deal?
September 19, 2014 at 1:29PM
Philip Bloom wrote a good article about shooting 4K video with a Samsung Galaxy Note 3: http://philipbloom.net/2013/10/24/note4k/
Though it's possible to shoot 4K on such a device, Bloom says that image stabilization and color grading are problematic for the footage.
September 19, 2014 at 12:37PM
Philip Bloom has been BETA testing Vizzywig 4K for 3 months.
September 19, 2014 at 12:53PM
And I don't think he's too impressed with the pricing either
http://instagram.com/p/tFgVs3qKoI/?modal=true
September 19, 2014 at 12:59PM
The hits just keep on coming! This is the best internet show I've seen in months!!!
September 19, 2014 at 1:21PM, Edited September 19, 1:21PM
Yes, i4software does have yet another hit on the AppStore top grossing charts in several countries.
September 19, 2014 at 1:31PM
No they don't.
September 19, 2014 at 5:27PM
Philip Bloom does think it is priced too high but the important thing is what he has to say about the technology and the quality and in particular the comparison to the Android 4K phone video people keep bringing up. So now it looks like the only legitimate complaint is the price?
Philip Bloom Wrote:
"The 4K video on the iPhone 5s is very cool and the results are impressive as they are essentially photos and the bit rate is super high. I have been BETA testing it for a few months but I had no idea it would have this price tag on the App Store. Jaw dropping. I can't figure who with this price tag, It's aimed at. Sure the 4k on my android phones I have had are poor compared to it but this just feels really strange.
September 19, 2014 at 1:29PM
It's interesting to me that no one has brought up color depth or dynamic range. Since Michael mentioned adjusting JPEG compression settings that means this is not a RAW workflow. There is no temporal compression clearly but its still misleading to call individual JPEGs raw images. These are 8 bit compressed images and will still have all of the issues associated with working in an 8 bit color space.
As others have mentioned the iPhone has hardware limitations (permanent fixed lens, fixed aperture, no proprietary ND) that will always make it a challenge to work with professionally. Not to mention editing on a phone is pretty terrible and there's simply no way this app could substitute for a professional NLE. I'll echo what others have said: maybe for a rich hobbyist, but not for professionals.
September 19, 2014 at 12:56PM
Hi Chris,
I agree color depth and dynamic range have a place in this conversation. I was one of the first in the world to own an EPIC Dragon 6K camera. That was the result of being on "the list" for a long time going back to the first RED ONE. I have spent 6 years on the RedUser forum. You think this forum is brutal, try that one. Those guys know more than anyone on the planet about this stuff.
At the end of the day, it is all about what you end up with and what you can do with it. You can talk technical specs all day long but there are a lot of factors. We use the Moondog Labs Anamorphic Lens so we can use the full sensor, Moondog is manufacturing a 52mm ND filter attachment for that lens to solve the ND problem with fixed aperture since iOS 8 will let us explicitly set the shutter speed and ISO. I never used the all caps word RAW which is clearly a different beast. When I say raw still images I am differentiating those from motion compressed sequences or chunks of data grouped by their similarities.
Regarding editing, editing with Vizzywig 4K is extremely easy and intuitive. We use a still frames workflow so it's really fast and completely non-destructive. We create low-res or HD proxies if you need to preview. Pro NLE's don't preserve original still frames through the entire process, they only import still image sequences and then convert those to a motion format for editing then all that gets run through another compressor when you export.
Vizzywig 4K is built for professionals. You will understand this one day. This reminds me of my first company back in 1990 called Omni Multimedia Services. I remember having these same exact conversations with multi-million dollar pre-press and printing companies that said I was absolutely crazy to think that quality color magazines and newspapers and color brochures could be created on a Mac Iix running Photoshop 1.0.6 and QuarkXpress. They said it wasn't professional. I was the first person in the Arizona to turn a typesetting machine into a four-color separation film output device by hand programming Postscript to set line-screen angles?
You think I don't know about color depth, dynamic range or RAW workflow? I have been a Photoshop Master Expert for over 25 years since version 1.0.6. I own a Nikon D800E which is probably the best stills camera in the world.
When I tell you that the 4K video I am getting out of my iPhone 5S with Vizzywig 4K is blowing my mind, you should really stop and pay attention. Sure, I might just be blowing smoke to trick people into buying my app but it's more likely (based upon my online reputation and experience) that I am on to something big. Apple has done a truly amazing job of producing amazing still photos on their devices. We have just taken that a step further and put those images (good enough for NatGeo) and most major magazines and newspapers into motion.
September 19, 2014 at 6:34PM
You didn't really address any of my specific points. Can you admit that what you are selling is 8 bit 4k based upon JPEG stills? Have you done dynamic range tests. Notice I did not say you weren't aware of these issues I said (if you actually read my comment) that no one had brought it up in this discussion before me (which is true). You can tell me I'm just talking specs but you also haven't provided any impressive video that shows off your product.
Your response was long and somewhat condescending but not persuasive. I'm waiting for something more than "take my word for it" or "I've used professional 4k equipment before". Looking forward to another treatise that says nothing.
September 19, 2014 at 7:27PM
Chris,
Some day plebs like you will understand and learn to take what Michael "Photoshop Master Expert" Zalatel says as the truth. You see Chris, the App Michael himself developed is blowing his mind! That my friend is what you can't comprehend. The brilliance of Mr. Zalatel. Just listen to him regale you of the time when others didn't recognize his brilliance. They all laughed at him. FOOLS!!! Someday...someday... all of us will recognize his brilliance and come to love his arbitrarily priced app that takes 24 8-bit pictures a second and will fill up your phone in 60 seconds. 24 consecutive jpegs a second Chris! 4k 8-bit images From a 1/3 iPhone sensor with a plastic lens! Don't you understand what that means?!? I pity you Chris. Truly. May god forgive you for blaspheming against one of his chosen children.
September 19, 2014 at 10:07PM
And thank you brother as I have seen the light. I didn't realize they were making an ANAMORPHIC lens for the iPhone. I can sell my DSLR and convince my work to sell the Sony PTZ cameras and Tricaster, after all now all I need is some iPhones and an iPad!
September 19, 2014 at 11:58PM
Costs more than the phone? @.@
September 19, 2014 at 1:20PM
I'm missing the point of this app. Why would photojournalists shoot on an iPhone, and why would any filmmaker spend $1000 that still doesn't allow you to change shutter or aperture?
September 19, 2014 at 1:26PM, Edited September 19, 1:26PM
Photojournalists shoot on iphones because papers are looking to cut costs any chance they can these days, so the real camera gets axed in favor of an iphone. They still don't need 4k, though.
September 19, 2014 at 1:39PM, Edited September 19, 1:39PM
Lots of photojournalists are shooting on iPhones. They may not need the 4K video but can also export HD versions. What they need is the burst image sequences and a way to organize them all into clips that can be repurposed.
September 19, 2014 at 2:07PM
Michael you still haven't addressed the quality bottleneck due to the limitations of the hardware.
September 19, 2014 at 5:30PM
The hilarity of all this is that right here on this thread is a perfect sampling of who Michael should be marketing to. People who he should be listening to because obviously he hasn't even spoken with a marketing firm or strategist. They would have told him by now how foolish this endeavor is. He certainly hasn't taken the time to study the app market. Instead he's hoping to sell people on his half-ass knowledge of video compression and a woefully ignorant position on the limitation of the hardware he's coding for. Right here. Right now. THESE are the people he should be marketing this app to...
...and nobody here wants to buy it for that price. Instead, because he couldn't make his GoPro app take off, he's decided to try and get a bunch of one-percenter dilettantes eat the cost of his other failed app. He certainly isn't after the true filmmakers that would know how to use the app like he claims. He's proven that by this point.
Every rationalization reeks more and more of desperation. He's not interested in the filmmaker, and that's fine, he's running a business. Alas, this whole thing just stinks of somebody making a last ditch effort to save his failing company. Thinking that somehow he can get every single casual millionaire filmmaker on the planet to buy his app ten fold.
How many people do you actually estimate that to be Michael?
September 19, 2014 at 5:46PM
I have been in videography, photography and filmmaking for 25 years and have been shooting 4K for 6 years now. I was one of the first in the world to own a RED ONE, RED ONE MX, Red EPIC M and RED EPIC Dragon 6K. Look me up on RedUser.net the thread history back to 2008 is all there.
I have been in the software business for 15 years and I have been in the App business for 4 years. 10 million people have download our various photo and video apps and our average rating is 4-5 stars. Our apps have grossed $3.5 Million. Vizzywig (formerly called Video Camera) won Best of Show at Macworld in 2012 at launch. It is still the only video editing app capable of simultaneously HD recording and live switching up to 16 iOS and Android devices at the same time.
The app is already selling beyond our expectations and we have plans to make a success out of Prizmia. Just because the launch pricing was wrong doesn't mean we have thrown in the towel. Fast Camera didn't do well at launch either and now it is one of the top grossing and top downloaded photography apps of all time. It actually broke a record last year after it was a Starbucks/Apple pick of the week when we put it on sale for Free and it was downloaded 1.4 million times in 24 hours. That's a record. It was #1 top free on the AppStore for 4 days until it went back to paid.
Why would I consult a marketing firm or strategist? They call me for advice.
September 19, 2014 at 6:08PM
I do take advice. I just don't like to take advice from people who haven't ever actually had their own money on the line on a product they were bringing to market.
September 19, 2014 at 6:58PM
That's an assumption and an incorrect one. Nice try though. Pulling comments out of your @ss and trying to pass them off as facts seem to be your MO. So, no surprise here.
September 19, 2014 at 8:09PM
"I have been in videography, photography and filmmaking for 25 years and have been shooting 4K for 6 years now. I was one of the first in the world to own a RED ONE, RED ONE MX, Red EPIC M and RED EPIC Dragon 6K. Look me up on RedUser.net the thread history back to 2008 is all there."
Great. You spend errantly. Congratulations. What does this have to do with your ridiculously priced app? That doesn't make you an expert in anything other than spending. You've owned A LOT of expensive cameras...and you've used them too! Wow!!! You also seem to have a knack for rambling on off topic on comment threads. Color me impressed.
"I have been in the software business for 15 years and I have been in the App business for 4 years. 10 million people have download our various photo and video apps and our average rating is 4-5 stars. Our apps have grossed $3.5 Million. Vizzywig (formerly called Video Camera) won Best of Show at Macworld in 2012 at launch. It is still the only video editing app capable of simultaneously HD recording and live switching up to 16 iOS and Android devices at the same time."
And in all that time it hasn't occurred to you that only a handful of people will buy your $999 app? What part of this don't you get Michael. YOU'RE CHARGING HARDWARE PRICES FOR SOFTWARE!!! The hardware is severely limited and because of that it can't compete with cameras that costs hundreds of dollars less than your software. All the hyperbole you spew about it to people who know better on here isn't going to change that. Any fool can see what a critical error you've made, based on nothing but your own hubris (see quote below).
"Why would I consult a marketing firm or strategist? They call me for advice."
No they don't.
Michael you've sat in this thread and spewed nothing but hyperbole, spin, and outright lies to a group of people who know better. Just stop. The people you should be trying to sell to aren't interested and the people you are trying to sell to aren't real working filmmakers. You're just digging yourself deeper.
September 19, 2014 at 8:07PM
Are you always this angry and hostile Tony?
I wish you nothing but the best and I hope that you are successful in all your endeavors.
I am sure that you have brought products to market. I was only saying that many marketing firms and consultants haven't so I don't take their advice. Wasn't making any assumptions about you or even directly that comment towards you.
These forums can get pretty nasty but you'll see I have not criticized you personally even one time. I am sure that if we met in person, you would have approached our conversation here differently. I wish we had. You seem like a passionate soul.
If you would like to beta test Vizzywig 4K some day, just contact me through our website. I never hold grudges and would enjoy the honest feedback from someone who isn't afraid to say what they think.
Sincerely,
Michael Zaletel
Founder, i4software
Vizzywig Studios
September 20, 2014 at 10:19AM
"Are you always this angry and hostile Tony?"
Only on special occasions (Yes, Michael I said it. You're special). Usually in the face of unhinged hubris.
"I wish you nothing but the best and I hope that you are successful in all your endeavors."
Come on now. You don't mean that. I wasn't born yesterday. Because of that i realize in life you win some you and you lose some. The best thing you can do to keep those averages up is to study the market and get the advice of professionals, like for instance marketing strategists... Uhhh, wait a minute...nevermind (see below)
"I am sure that you have brought products to market. I was only saying that many marketing firms and consultants haven't so I don't take their advice."
Uhhh...Michael. Their job isn't enterpreneurship. It's marketing. Something any entrepreneur has a basic understanding of, but consults with REAL professionals with.
"Wasn't making any assumptions about you or even directly that comment towards you."
Suuuuuuuuure you did. I think you should re-read your comment.
"These forums can get pretty nasty but you'll see I have not criticized you personally even one time. I am sure that if we met in person, you would have approached our conversation here differently. I wish we had. You seem like a passionate soul."
Possibly, I may have been more marginally open to what you had to say, but eventually I would have still called you on your bullshit (see first response above). Especially when you started talking about price, film outs, professional equipment, and professionals in general. You're logic thus far shows a severe disconnect on these topics.
"If you would like to beta test Vizzywig 4K some day, just contact me through our website. I never hold grudges and would enjoy the honest feedback from someone who isn't afraid to say what they think."
Thanks, but I can't sell it on eBay for more than $20 (fees, paypal skim, and what not) and I'm well aware of the limitations of the phone hardware and coding for video on it. Even if you gave me a beta that crapped out 14-bit 8K RAW I still wouldn't be interested in it for more than $10.
But I do appreciate you putting your virtual money were your mouth is.
Again, It's a nifty piece of coding, but you'll never get past the limitations of the hardware. Nobody is outputting digital to film, and professionals are never going to use an iPhone/iPad as their main camera. Not even as a B-Camera. The iPhone can be pushed and prodded into and acceptable acquisition tool, but it's an emergency backup camera at best. No amount of data path wrangling will change that.
You've made some massive critical errors in regards to who you are trying to sell this app to. In all sincerity, for the prosperity of this app, I hope you can get your head out of the clouds. Make it a reasonable price and I will buy it out right. So will hundreds of thousands of filmmakers.
September 20, 2014 at 12:09PM
I guess Michael Zaletel is targeting a very niche audience (more like RED users). So, he doesn't care much for pricing.
The app seems extremely impressive. I would like to see a comparisons with other 4k Mobile Phones (like Samsung Note 3's 4k) and cameras like the Panasonic GH4's 4k and Lumix DMC-LX100, the Sony FDR AX-100 etc.
September 20, 2014 at 5:48AM
I am planning to post some comparison videos, and more importantly for everyone on this site, the still frames. I have the LG G3 and the Xperia Z2 and the Galaxy S5. Are there any other smart phones or tablets anyone here thinks would perform better than those?
The online demos of the G3 and Z2 look impressive enough but the reality when you are actually looking at the scene with your own eyes is quite different. You can just boost saturation and sharpness and compress 24.8MB of sensor data (3840 x 2160 x 8 bits x 3 channels)/8bits) single frames down to 150KB each (4MB/sec H.264) and stay true to the original scene. Granted, Vizzywig 4K is compressing each still frame down to 8MB on max quality setting but that's a TON more usable data guys. Same problem with GH4. Don't you guys care about high-quality still frames you could print to 35mm film if needed?
September 20, 2014 at 10:01AM
Above, I meant to write, "you cannot just..."
September 20, 2014 at 11:31AM
Michael,
To be honest, all of the videos you've shown have looked incredibly mediocre at best. There has not been a single shot that is comparable to a dedicated video camera. Comparing the video quality from your app to red cameras is insulting. What you app does is cool, but that is all it is. I have yet to see anything produced from it that I would consider usable in a professional environment.
I would love to be proved wrong. If you truly believe the video from your app comes close to red, please upload a comparison video shooting side by side with your Red Dragon you keep mentioning.
September 20, 2014 at 11:34AM
I never said that Vizzywig 4K comes close to RED. I said that I have owned and shot with those cameras and have an eye for quality 4K.
This discussion should be focused on comparing the 4K quality possible with Vizzywig 4K compared to the quality possible on an Android phone that shoots 4K video stock out of the box such as the LG G3, Samsung Galaxy S5 and Xperia Z2. However, you can also include the BMD cameras and GH4 that use heavy compression. You just can't get the same quality we are getting with 576Mb/sec with when those cameras are at 32Mb/sec or even 100Mb/sec.
Of course no one will print out to 35mm film. The fact that you could and that each frame would be pristine means much more beyond actually doing it. Ask any colorist that had has to grade Android 4K footage.
Now, keeping EPIC Dragon with its 6K sensor out of this, I would definitely cut Vizzywig 4K footage in with RED ONE MX footage. That's still a $10,000 setup and the 4K digital camera used on more feature films than any other.
I will shoot some comparisons with the RED ONE MX, the G3, Z2 and Vizzywig 4K and I will also take RAW stills with the Nikon D800E so everyone can see what the scene really looked like. Don't be fooled by stages demo videos that look colorful and brilliant when you have no baseline frame of reference for the actual scene.
September 20, 2014 at 12:54PM
I look forward to seeing a comparison to the Red One. If you truly are saying that your app is comparable to the camera that shot Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Book of Eli, Anti-Christ, Super 8, and many more blockbuster films, your app is truly incredible. I'd buy 5.
But I will remain incredibly skeptical, as every video you've shown has barely passed as a "video," looking like a bad stop motion.
September 21, 2014 at 9:57AM
Everybody speak up if you've done a digital to film transfer lately? Michael that's the sound of crickets you hear. Get out of the 90's. The majority of theaters have converted to digital projection. Hell, the second run theater near my house had to go out and buy an off the shelf digital projector just so they could screen the DCP's they were getting.
Outputting to film? It's 2014 Michael.
September 20, 2014 at 11:45AM
Sanveer,
RED users don't use RED cameras simply because of the data path and Redcode. They use the cameras for the sensor as well (primarily I'd wager), usually in conjunction with quality glass.
I too would love to see the comparisons you speak of. Pretty sure how those would shake out, but I would still like to see them for the sake of amusement.
September 20, 2014 at 11:41AM
"This discussion should be focused on comparing the 4K quality possible with Vizzywig 4K compared to the quality possible on an Android phone that shoots 4K video stock out of the box such as the LG G3, Samsung Galaxy S5 and Xperia Z2. However, you can also include the BMD cameras and GH4 that use heavy compression. You just can't get the same quality we are getting with 576Mb/sec with when those cameras are at 32Mb/sec or even 100Mb/sec."
Good lord you keep regurgitating the same spin expecting us swallow it up. Changing the goal posts won't help either Michael.
You are being completely disingenuous when you claim a series of 4k 8bit jpegs in a video container from a mediocre sensor and a plastic lens is superior to a good sensor with a good lens compressed to h264. It's not true when you first said it and it's not try now.
I'll explain once again (in the proper chain order of image acquisition) 3 facts why your app cannot compete:
1.)Price. Cumulatively the price of your app and a phone is between. $1300-1600 dollars. This is a fact. GH4, LX100, FZ1000, Samsung NX-1. Four 4k Cameras that can be purchased in that immediate price range.
2.) Lens. 99% of lenses you can attach to the cameras listed above will out perform the iPhone camera lens easily. 100% off the fixed camera lenes listed above will out perform the iPhone camera lens. This first piece of the image acquisition chain already beats the iPhone lens hands sown. No question about it. This is a fact.
3.) Sensor. We've established 4k cameras exist that are priced less than your app. They have superior sensors to the iPhone camera sensor. This is a no brainer. A simple fact.
4.) The data path. 8-bit jpeg compression from a phone camera simply isn't as efficient as 8bit h264 using a dedicated h264 backend encoder. Never will be.
To put it simply (yet again) the photo jpeg image encoder from a mediocre sensor with a plastic lens isn't going to best h264 from a dedicated encoder from superior sensor with a quality lens.
..but you should know this if you're such genius professional with 25 years of experience working with high end camera gear and mobile apps.
September 20, 2014 at 2:17PM
Iniitally this was 3 facts, but the price still makes me chuckle so I had to add it.
September 20, 2014 at 2:27PM
One important point to consider in all of this is that ALL of the Android devices that claim to shoot 4K video are significantly "cropping" the sensor when you switch from photo mode to video mode. This is likely because the sensors are wider than 3840 pixels and it isn't feasible or possible to subsample or downscale in real-time so they are only using a portion of the sensor.
In Vizzywig 4K, with the Moondog Labs Anamorphic Lens adapter (which is an amazingly well engineered piece of kit, quite successful on Kickstarter) we are capturing and using every single pixel on the sensor.
When you crop in on the sensor substantially like is the case on the LG G3 and the Sony Xperia Z2, you ZOOM in a lot. In order to get the same exact shot on those devices that I am able to get on the iPhone 5S with the Moondog Lens, I have to get MUCH further back from the subject. Physical distance from the sensor is a very important component of resolution and detail. This is the PRIMARY reason why, even with a lower Megapixel sensor, the iPhone 5S 4K video still frames look so amazing and so much better than the top Android devices 4K video still frames. What's the point of a larger sensor if you are cropping so much of it out of the picture and forcing the user to move further back from the subject to get the same shot. This becomes particularly important with human face close-ups and is why Vizzywig 4K picks up the finest details in eyelashes and even blonde facial hair.
September 20, 2014 at 6:29PM
Seriously, earlier you were claiming your iPhone app bests any sub $5000 camera (we know it doesn't). Now you're only left with the rationalization that it bests other 4k Camera phones in quality. Well, this is true (by default that there isn't Vizzywig for Android). It may be the most completely honest thing you've said yet.
Everybody!!! Listen up. Michaels app will shoot better 4K cell phone video than any of the competition. For that reason you should cough up $999. LOL!!!
It just keeps getting or and more absurd...
Now cropping is a reason to get your app. Cropping?!? Seriously Michael? But Michael what about your glorious 4k "impressive breakthrough"? Once you crop it ceases to be 4K
Anybody who shoots "professional" video uses cropping as a last resort. Real shooters actually try to get the frame they want in camera. Somebody with your supposed experience of 25 years doing...
...oh fer f**ks sake. Why am I even pointing this out. Even sarcastically.
September 20, 2014 at 7:24PM
To clarify...
Vizzywig 4K does not crop or crop the sensor when used in 4K ANA mode. All Android devices that claim to shoot 4K video "crop" down on the sensor and only use a reduced area of the sensor when you switch into video mode from photo mode. In fact, all cell phones and many DSLR's zoom in (crop the sensor) when you switch from photo mode to video mode. Even an an iPhone 5S or 6 Plus, when you switch from camera photo mode to video mode, you'll see preview zoom in.
I believe the Panasonic GH4 and other similar non-phone 4K under $5,000 cameras also crop in on the sensor so that they don't have to downscal or subsample pixels.
I have tried to make clear that Vizzwig 4K is the best overall value for a complete 4K acquisition, editing and distribution package. This considers the cost of the laptop and software that would be needed with dedicated 4K cameras.
September 21, 2014 at 5:09PM
$999 for an app or $899 for a Panasonic FZ1000 4K camera... Hmm lemme think... Lol.
September 21, 2014 at 2:34AM
The FZ1000 is able to record 4K QFHD (3840 x 2160) video at 30p with a high bit rate of 100Mbps in the MP4 file format.
It crops the sensor in 4K video mode and it does not shoot 24p, it captures only 400KB per frame of data vs 3MB per frame for Vizzywig 4K. It is mp4 which is hard to grade and the camera does not have any editing or distribution capabilities so you would still need to buy a laptop or iMac and Adobe Premiere or Final Cut Pro. You would also spend a lot more time in that 4K workflow.
September 21, 2014 at 5:16PM
Oh good lord...
Even cropped, The lens/sensor/data path of those cameras mentioned is still superior to your app.
Nobody is going to create a project in you app start to finish. You've made it virtually impossible do do so BECAUSE of your high data rate garbage. It's going to take up all the phone space before any project worth a damn is complete. Anybody who attempts to do so is a fool.
For that matter it doesn't matter what your data rate is because the lens/sensor combo can't compete.
This silly idea that your app is some sort of all in one production package is nonsense. Set aside the data rate sucking up all your disk space in minutes, no professional would ever risk a project (paying or otherwise) by using that limited pipeline. One that hinges completely upon the hardware of a cell phone. You did state this app was made for professionals did you not?
"I have tried to make clear that Vizzwig 4K is the best overall value for a complete 4K acquisition, editing and distribution package."
Sure, but it isn't for professionals. You've tried to sell it as:
a.) An app that in conjunction with an iPhone bests any sub $5000 4K Camera.
b.) An all in one "professional" 4K production suite.
c.) An app worth $999.
All are simply untrue in point of fact because of the limited hardware and the purpose of the app. It doesn't shoot professional quality video. It could never be used for a professional production, from start to finish, all from inside the phone.
Also you keep crowing on about how hard h264 is to grade, and while certainly not as good as a ProRes or RAW solution, professionals have been managing just fine with h264 just fine. Grading requires a powerful PC and you think professionals are going to want to do it with phone hardware? Absurd. Your posturing that somehow an 8-bit jpeg is so much easier? Hogwash. It's only better by the slightest of margins.
P.S. With the next firmware update the FZ1000 will shoot 24p. Do your homework.
September 21, 2014 at 11:00PM
Hi Tony,
Why don't you pick out a sub $5,000 4K camera including lens and monitor and minimum required accessories. I will order it.
Then, I will fly to your home town with Vizzywig 4K and we can have a symbolic "shoot out" on the streets of your city.
Then we will both post the footage and the still frames and we will let people decide for themselves. Although, it will take you qute a bit longer to edit and upload so they might have to wait to see yours.
Are you going to keep talking or are you going to prove your theories in a scientific experiment where you get to control your tests and I get to control mine. (With you overseeing of course) so you can't later make further false accusations.
Contact me through LinkedIN InMail.
-Michael
September 22, 2014 at 4:33AM
Oh screw this, i accept your challenge.
September 22, 2014 at 6:58AM
It's called the burden of proof Michael, you're the only one on here who believes the hype... your own hype no less. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. Not me. As you can see from all the other comments, nobody really buys what you're selling either.
I'd say put up or shut up, but as we've seen from these posts you're completely willing to fudge facts, spin, and occasionally lie. So forgive me if I think any tests you provide would be rigged. I have no interest in wasting time on something that I know to be true based on facts. You see, we already have enough facts regarding the iPhone and sub $5000 4k cameras to come to a fairly accurate conclusion. Nothing you've shown thus far has changed that.
Again... the burden of proof falls directly at your feet Michael.
Tell you what. Give a beta to Ovie and give the beta you offered to me to Andrew Reid from Eoshd.com (as diligent a pixel peeper I've sever come across). Ask him to do some tests with sub $5000 4K cameras.
September 22, 2014 at 1:38PM
This quote is a prime example of why this app is not for professionals of any kind:
"Then we will both post the footage and the still frames and we will let people decide for themselves. Although, it will take you qute a bit longer to edit and upload so they might have to wait to see yours."
If I have to explain why Michael, you need to go back to the drawing board.
September 22, 2014 at 1:45PM
Hi Tony,
I figured you wouldn't be up for the challenge. I'll bow out here and just let you keep posting more words. When you are ready to put action to your words, you know how to contact me.
As for me, I just received my iPhone 6 Plus today so I'm going to focus on adding support for these amazing new devices to Vizzywig 4K.
See ya around...
Michael Zaletel
September 22, 2014 at 2:25PM
Heaven forbid we leave the comparison in the hands of two completely unrelated impartial parties instead of your vain dick measuring contest you proposed.
Sir, you continue to impress I must say.
September 22, 2014 at 5:00PM
Pages