September 25, 2015

RED RAVEN Camera is Official: $6K for 4K RAW to 120fps & 2K ProRes to 60fps

RED RAVEN Brain Only 1
RED has officially announced the RAVEN which they've been teasing for a while now.

The thoughts I shared about the camera here are all still valid as pricing will start at $6,000 for the brain/media bay/Canon EF mount, but go up to nearly $10,000 for a bare minimum shooting package (which includes only 1 Mini-Mag SSD). There really weren't any surprises left except for the fact that the camera also has 2K ProRes up to 60fps that is scaled down from the full sensor. It's also capable of 4K RAW up to 120fps, 3K RAW to 160fps, and 2K RAW to 240fps (the latter of which are crops of the sensor).

RED RAVEN Brain Only 2
RAVEN shares basically the same body type as the WEAPON, and uses all of the same modules, except it's slightly lighter at 3.5 pounds. This camera uses a 4K area of the 6K DRAGON sensor, which gives us a 20.48mm image area that's between APS-C and Micro 4/3. 

The video isn't terribly enlightening but it does give you a quick sense of the camera's 3D shape. As far as specs are concerned, here's what we're looking at:

  • 8.8 Megapixel DRAGON Sensor
  • 20.48 mm x 10.8 mm (Smaller than APS-C, Bigger than Micro 4/3)
  • Fixed Canon EF Mount
  • Standard OLPF (Roughly 800 base ISO, maybe less)
  • Same Dynamic Range as WEAPON (safely in the 14 stop range though it's listed at 16.5)
  • RAW: 4K (4096 × 2160) up to 120 fps
  • RAW: 3K (3072 × 1620) up to 160 fps
  • RAW: 2K (2048 × 1080) up to 240 fps
  • 3:1 maximum available REDCODE for 4K (4096 × 2160) at 24 fps
  • 7:1 maximum available REDCODE for 4K (4096 × 2160) at 60 fps
  • 13:1 maximum available REDCODE for 4K (4096 × 2160) at 120 fps
  • Apple ProRes 422 HQ, 422, LT: up to 2K (2048 × 1080) and up to 60 fps
  • Audio: Integrated dual channel digital stereo microphones, uncompressed, 24-bit 48 kHz (Optional 2 additional channels with Expander Module, uncompressed, 24-bit 48 kHz)
  • Monitoring: works with current RED monitors with appropriate adapters (if necessary)
  • Shoots with RED Mini-Mags
  • Built-in Wireless Control (Not for Monitoring)
  • Ethernet, RS232, and GPI Trigger with Expander Modules.
  • ~3.5 lbs (BRAIN with Media Bay and Canon Lens Mount) for this Alluminum Alloy Body
  • Availability: February 2016 for Brain and Brain/Jetpack Package, March 2016 for Base I/O Package
  • Price: $5950 Body Only, Brain/Jetpack Package: $9,750, Brain/Base I/O Package: $9,950
RED RAVEN Back

RAVEN, at least at first, is going to ship in three different packages, with the two more expensive kits including the 4.7" touch monitor. You'll be able to buy the camera with the Brain/Side SSD/Canon EF Mount for a little under $6,000, but as I said in my previous post, the camera costs much more to get going. While I was hoping they might have significantly discounted kits, you save only a few hundred dollars by getting one of the nearly $10,000 packages (instead of buying those accessories separately).

Brain Package

Jetpack Package

Base I/O Package

These packages will mostly get you going, but strangely they don't include a media reader at the moment. Let's hope that's just a little bit of oversight because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to go to these lengths and put these packages together without giving people a way to transfer footage (without buying the reader separately).

You do save a little bit of money going with one of these packages if you were going to buy these exact accessories anyway. With RED (as really with any camera), it's not all that safe just shooting with one card, so I'd add another $850 120GB Mini-Mag as a minimum just to make sure you're able to offload and still shoot. 

RAVEN is Not Really a Budget Camera

RAVEN actually packs some pretty amazing stuff into its package, and it does a lot of what WEAPON does with a smaller 4K sensor. However, this is not a cheap camera. As I wrote in my post, you're absolutely going to be in for more than $10,000 if you want to have a realistic shooting package, likely closer to $12,000 if you want something that has all of the the ports, media, and batteries you need to shoot all day.

It seems like they have come up with a new module that includes some basic ports as well as a built-in V-Mount adapter, which is important since the Jetpack Expander module doesn't have any physical way of connecting a battery and doesn't let you attach more modules — you've got to go through the power port just like with the old RED EPIC/SCARLET bodies. 

The biggest thing I want to make clear about this camera is that you're not going to buy it for $6,000 and shoot with it for that price. This also is a camera in a bit of a different class. This isn't really a run-and-gun shooter, and comparing it to Canon or Sony cameras isn't really that simple or even make that much sense except purely based on shooting 4K and price. There are no built-in ND filters, and it's not going to be all that sensitive ISO-wise compared to a Canon or Sony cinema camera in this price range (it's base is around 800, but could be slightly less as no one has tested the Standard OLPF yet).

Why RAVEN is Still a Big Deal for RED

There are some huge positives for RAVEN, including the fact that it works with all WEAPON modules, and has built-in ProRes (which unfortunately is limited to 2K). While it would have been nice to have had 4K ProRes as we get with Blackmagic's cheap cameras, at least the 2K ProRes is a full scale of the sensor. This camera also technically doesn't need to be attached to any monitors to change settings, as WiFi is built-in. Another advantage is the fact that black shading isn't necessary as often. Proper black shading would ensure less noise in the dark areas, but it was a huge pain in the RED system and something I have never experienced with any other camera body. It's good that they've basically found ways around needing to constantly do it in the newer WEAPON-style bodies. And since it shares the WEAPON body, the fan situation is greatly improved.

You're also getting much higher frame rates than you've ever gotten on a RED camera in this range. Yes, 3K and 2K are crops of the sensor, but 4K at 120fps is more than most people need, and it's far better than anything the SCARLET MX had. That camera really should be retired in order for the RED camera system to make a little more sense.

SCARLET DRAGON is kind of the odd camera out in terms of frame rates, as it's limited to 2K at 120fps, half of what this camera can do, yet the brain price alone is triple. You might be able to shoot at 5K, but I think more people would take the frame rates and features over the slightly bigger sensor area. Let's hope RED makes this product line a little more clear as there are too many older camera bodies in the mix that aren't the best options at their price.

Bottom Line

Comparing this to other cameras is difficult because RED has often done things their own way, and this is a compressed RAW camera with variable settings, something no one else has really done for the prices RED has managed. That said, this is not a cheap camera.

You're going to get stellar image quality with the DRAGON sensor (and great dynamic range), but be prepared to spend well over $10K. If you're looking for an inexpensive camera with EF lens compatibility, there will be other options out there — though there's always a give and take, and other cameras sacrifice ultimate flexibility for cheaper media and highly compressed recording. 

It comes down to what you need a camera to do. If you are in more controlled environments, RAVEN will be a fantastic option, especially as a B-camera to EPIC or WEAPON, but if you're shooting a lot of run-and-gun or you're constantly working with minimal lighting or uncontrolled lighting, you're going to want something with built-in NDs and good low-light, neither of which the RAVEN has.

Pre-Order

RAVEN is available to pre-order right now, though as seen above you must put in a deposit. These should start shipping next year, but as with anything RED, don't expect these in any great numbers early on. If this camera is popular enough you may even be looking at Summer 2016 before you can actually just purchase one outright (so plan accordingly).     

Your Comment

85 Comments

Fixed EF Mount? Why bother paying that much for a camera when you don't have the option to put decent glass on it?...

September 25, 2015 at 8:48AM

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Matt Carter
VFX Artist / Director / DP / Writer / Composer / Alexa Owner
765

I have absolutely no idea! For me, this doesn't make any sense at all! A 10K cinema camera with a mount for stills glass?
Or is it actually another overpriced budget camera for people who can't afford good glass? lol

Everything else about this camera seems to be really great btw :)

September 25, 2015 at 9:05AM, Edited September 25, 9:07AM

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? EF Mount is not just for stills. A large amount of high quality cinema glass can be procured in either PL or EF mount.

September 25, 2015 at 9:10AM

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Joseph Moore
Director
220

Only Canon CNE and Zeiss CP series are available in EF and they both share the same glass as the still lenses that they produce. L series and ZF series. Good cinema glass is typically PL mount or PV if you rent panavision glass

September 25, 2015 at 10:44AM

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Patrick Hanover
Cinematographer
88

Leica Rs are some nice vintage glass. I have those and are EF mount.

September 25, 2015 at 6:20PM

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Schneiders makes an EF mount. The set will cost you 10 times more than the camera at $50K.

September 26, 2015 at 2:55AM

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Rich Bella
Director of Photography
81

Canon makes plenty of Cinema Glass.

September 25, 2015 at 9:12AM, Edited September 25, 9:12AM

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Scot Yount
Director/Editor/Photographer/Motion Graphic Artist
392

Seriously if you are going to spend 10K on a camera, I'd prefer one that has a PL mount or even a MFT over an EF. I guess if you are going to buy the 60K Canon cine glass then ok, but if you are going to do that you are probably going to buy and Alexa anyway.. I don't know just doesn't make a lot of sense to me

September 25, 2015 at 11:04AM

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I mean there's also Schneider's Xenon and Xenar lines. And all of the Canon/Zeiss Zooms aren't made from still glass.

September 25, 2015 at 11:10AM

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Zachary Will
Cinematographer
934

Exactly - plenty of great glass with Canon mount now including Angenieux Optima zooms which are a first choice of many A-list DP's. Not to mention XEEN, Rokinon, Milvus, Sigma Art, etc. If you've got the cash for PL mount and need Cooke or ARRI glass then you've got the money to shoot with Alexa, F65 or Weapon anyways...

September 25, 2015 at 1:45PM

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Lance Bachelder
Writer/Director/Editor
330

Angenieux lenses are also available in Canon EF mount... thats pretty elite as zoom lenses go.

September 25, 2015 at 8:35PM

9
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Well this is not a 50k camera, it's a $10k range, and in that range I would say that a lot of people use EF mount lenses (Zeiss primes / Canon cinema / SLR)

September 25, 2015 at 9:46AM

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Jason Han
Cinematographer
265

Canon cinema lenses are not decent ??

September 25, 2015 at 10:12AM

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Roberto Mettifogo
Behind Cameras.
341

I love the Canon cinema lens line - it's by far the best value in Cinema glass. The talent behind the lens is far more important than the brand or lens mount.

September 25, 2015 at 1:47PM

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Lance Bachelder
Writer/Director/Editor
330

Isn't the C300 MkII a fixed canon mouth only?

September 25, 2015 at 10:19AM

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Rodrigo Prata
Director of Photography
246

The C300MKII comes in either EF or PL mount.

September 25, 2015 at 10:44AM, Edited September 25, 10:44AM

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Danny T
Photographer
493

It's pointless to me and a total deal breaker, I was planning to place an order but this has screwed that up. I'm not spending that much money on a camera to put sloppy canon lenses on. There's always a damn gotcha!

September 25, 2015 at 12:02PM

0
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Wildlite
168

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcanon+to+pl+mount.TRS0&_nkw=canon+to+pl+mount&_sacat=0 Not that hard to find a trillion on ebay that are well made

September 25, 2015 at 1:07PM

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Of which none work with more than a select few lenses

September 26, 2015 at 12:21AM, Edited September 26, 12:22AM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
1085

Well they seemed to work perfectly fine on cinemodded 7d's back like in 2009. Accepted Cooke and Ultra Primes easily. Mirror was torn out of the cameras. You can also find a bunch of metal shops to build them to your liking. Maybe some of the pl lenses from like the 70s, 80s that went way back into the sensor would be a problem

September 26, 2015 at 4:02AM

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There's a big difference between these adapters and the hardware mods that were done on the 7d though.

Most dumb PL adapters don't allow lenses with longer rear protrusions like the Zeiss CP.2's.

September 27, 2015 at 5:24PM, Edited September 27, 5:24PM

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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
1085

I put the ebay link as a starter, and i also said in another post that you can always find metal shops that work on customized mounts. If one handles PL lenses, one hopefully knows that there's a market for this. I don't understand how I'm getting put down for trying to help out the community of nofilmschoolers. I actually some times feel like I'm helping out students at an actual film school

September 28, 2015 at 12:31AM

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"RAVEN, at least at first, is going to ship in three different packages, all of which include the RED 4.7" touch monitor. "
Joe, pretty sure not all three packages include the monitor. The brain only I think is brain only.

September 25, 2015 at 9:14AM

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Scot Yount
Director/Editor/Photographer/Motion Graphic Artist
392

Thanks for that, yeah I had written it correctly in other parts of the article but added the touchscreen part later and it no longer made sense.

September 25, 2015 at 11:50AM

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Joe Marine
Camera Department

does this camera include 'hdr" option ?

and what is the bit rate of this camera ?

September 25, 2015 at 9:43AM, Edited September 25, 9:46AM

7
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Arthur
174

A moderator on Reduser confirmed that it has HDRx.

September 28, 2015 at 2:17PM

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Rich Brown
Director, Producer
241

I think Raven is a 60fps camera. 120fps/13:1 redcode will be super noisy. With ugly noise. I don't find it usable.

September 25, 2015 at 10:19AM

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JoachimV
496

13:1 is roughly equivalent to RC36 which people using the Red One have shot with for years. You'll have no problem with compression, Red's wavelet codec is excellent.

September 26, 2015 at 2:59PM, Edited September 26, 2:59PM

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Wait, the body includes a built-in V-mount adapter? I don't see anything about that.
"a new module that includes some basic ports as well as a built-in V-Mount adapter"

Did he mean the Base I/O package? DSMC² Base I/O V-Lock Expander is the V-mount adapter isn't it?

I'm pretty happy with the specs though, pre-ordering the base I/O.

September 25, 2015 at 10:20AM

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Jason Han
Cinematographer
265

I'm wondering the same thing about the V-Mount adapter.
The Base V-lock expander sounds more like a base plate to me.. so maybe it's something else.

September 25, 2015 at 10:50AM

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Danny T
Photographer
493

I was really going to get this until I read fixed Canon EF. That is a total deal breaker for me, bad news.

September 25, 2015 at 10:48AM

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Wildlite
168

What I'm having a hard time understanding is the amount of time that will take to ship this. They say delivery Feb/March 2016. Why would anyone bank on this when around that time it will be close to NAB 2016 and odds are that something "amazing" will be announced then? They hyped the this new RAVEN camera quite a bit, so I expected a more expedited delivery.

Specs wise, it's good on paper, but I can't help but feel this is just a capped RED DRAGON and personally, if you are going to invest on the RED ecosystem, might as well go for their top of the line stuff, namely the RED WEAPON. Expensive? Yes, but I think for what you get is definetly worth the investment.

September 25, 2015 at 11:39AM

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I'd like to work with that sensor but that 1.8 crop factor is killing me. It would make for a difficult documentary camera. Not sure there are many options for ultra-wide angle EF L glass out there. It would make a killer camera for birding though... :) Raven, lol

September 25, 2015 at 11:57AM

0
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Tokina makes the 11-16mm in a declicked option in EF.

September 25, 2015 at 12:07PM

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Zak Abitz
Video Producer
95

All these people complaining that this costs 10k and then upset that it comes with a fixed EF mount. If you can't drop 10k to get into the RED upgrade pipeline (which isn't the right path for everyone) I doubt you will be dropping $600 a day on a PL lens package.

September 25, 2015 at 12:26PM, Edited September 25, 12:31PM

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Sam C.
100

Some of us have a heavy investment in other glass, like Leica M. Given an M Mount is available for other RED models it's quite frustrating.

September 25, 2015 at 12:58PM, Edited September 25, 12:58PM

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Wildlite
168

for those people complaining about the camera not having an PL mount http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcanon+to+pl+mount.TRS0&_nkw=canon+to+pl+mount&_sacat=0

September 25, 2015 at 1:06PM

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I think there's one big thing missing:
THIS: http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-base-expander
One reason this brain is only 5950 USD is they cut off 1750 USD the possibility of outputing on a monitor instead of using thier monitor.
(Keep in mind you can control the camera with Wifi now...)
In all thier 10K USD kit, they don't have this.

Any one who own a camera now how crucial this is... well played Red.

Here's my breakdown:

Brain (EF mount, side SSD) = 5950 USD
Weapon Base Expander (Output HDMI, SDI, Ctrl, etc,) : 1750 USD
Moniteur 4.7" LCD: 1450 USD
Red Mini-mag 120GB: 850 USD
Red Mini-mag 240GB: 1400 USD
Red Station Mini: 195 USD

Total: 11595 USD (which unfortunately convert in 15456$ CAD)

September 25, 2015 at 1:07PM

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Danny T
Photographer
493

The "DSMC² Base I/O V-Lock Expander" sounds like another "base expander", just found out at reduser Phil Holland said "the Base I/O Expander adds HDMI out, SDI out, DC in, SYNC, CTRL, and two audio ports. You can also attach something like the WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module to the back of the Base I/O Expander to use REDVOLT XL style batteries on RAVEN.

Additionally, there is a connection point on the right side of the RAVEN and WEAPON cameras that can accept camera control accessories like the SIDEKICK or upcoming Side Handle."

Still wondering if the V-lock adapter is actually on the body itself without these additional expanders as stated in this article....

But yeah as for the price, I think it's great for the image that you will produce on the Dragon sensor, especially since I came from a mindset of thinking of dropping something like $70k (CAD) on the Weapon, $15k is a much better investment for me as these bodies depreciate so fast along with better and cheaper cameras coming out every few months.

September 25, 2015 at 3:51PM, Edited September 25, 3:59PM

1
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Jason Han
Cinematographer
265

I don't think the V-lock adapter is on the body itself. I believe the I/O V-Lock Expander is one of the most cost effective ways of getting a V-lock adapter on it from what I can tell. I think that's what I'm going for. There are third party V-lock backs, too, I believe.

September 25, 2015 at 5:20PM

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IMO, this is a pretty insane deal. Red lists the crop factor as being “Approximately equivalent to APS-C (7D, 60D, etc...)” which is fine with me as I loved my 7D and was plenty shallow.

As for bitching about EF mount, at least it's a double lock EF mount. All Zeiss Cine primes and zooms have EF mounts as does Angenieux zooms and a few others; so there's some good high end glass you can use. Plus, this camera is around $14K with everything, which is dirt cheap for what you are getting.

Everyone is so love struck by the Ursa, but that's the same thing, either EF or PL mount. I highly doubt anyone who only has $6K for a camera owns any PL lenses and what are you going to do? Rent a PL lens for all your camera tests of your dog, flowers and girlfriend?

I work regularly on mid-end projects here in LA and I've never, once seen a Black Magic on set, probably because they have a reputation for being glitchy. Red are on tons of projects. As an owner operator, you might have to shell out 2x as much for the Raven as the Ursa, but you will get way, way more work with a Red.

Is the Raven perfect? Of course not, but for the price / value it's pretty great.

September 25, 2015 at 1:49PM

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Gene Sung
DP / Director
725

hahahahahah, "you will get way, way more work with a Red."
Camera brands don't get you work. YOUR WORK gets you work.

and knowing the right people always helps :)

September 25, 2015 at 5:03PM

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Sadly, that's not true, at least in my market. You have two DPs for a medium budget job, both have very similar reels, personalities and abilities. One has the Black Magic and the other has a Red. I can almost guarantee you the producer will go with the person with the Red because producers know the word Red.

In LA, the lower end is totally dominated by owner / operators - nobody rents for low budget jobs. The camera you own largely determines who you shoot with - Some companies are all Canon and seen quite a few FS7s lately. The mid-end has quite a few Red owners and the big budgets are all rentals.

Your gear definitely helps you get jobs. I work with two gaffers, both are good, super cool and fairly similar rates. But one guy has a truck and all the grip and lighting ready to go while the other guy we have to source everything.

Guess who we go with more?

I'm definitely not an advocate of having your camera define you, but the reality is certain cameras just get more work than others.

September 25, 2015 at 6:43PM, Edited September 25, 6:43PM

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Gene Sung
DP / Director
725

I have gone through web sites that show which cameras are used in Hollywood, and it turns out that Red is the most used, edging out Arri (though I know some will argue forever Arri is used more).

I can't really see the issue with "video looking" as so many commenters on the internet complain about. "Filmic" only seems to matter to a very small percentage of people, and it seems all of them, that small percentage that is, are shooters. I don't see anyone talking about "filmic" or "video looking" outside of internet comment threads.

To me, Red has an appealing look, and the best color palette of all cameras. I can see why producers want it. Arri rental costs are just ridiculous. They are priced out of most shoots.

I don't think Red is chosen just for name recognition. It could be that it is the best camera available, especially considering cost. Sometimes we have to consider that the customer really is right.

Here's a very nice Red sample. I don't see that "video-ish" issue in this. It looks gorgeous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky-e2bkTm78

September 28, 2015 at 4:05AM, Edited September 28, 4:25AM

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Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1553

That's "your" reality, Gene. Most clients don't care about the tech as long as it looks good.

September 30, 2015 at 12:29PM, Edited September 30, 12:28PM

1
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Not really true in the market now sadly. I know plenty of marginal DP's with RED packages making great success simply because they own a RED. The demand of people willing to pay $1,000 a day to shoot red is highly prevelant. I know people who still get $1K a day for their scarlet.

On the other hand the best DP I know, does not have a RED and is nowhere near as successful.

Nowadays it's more about the camera, not many producers will choose to pay someone a day rate with no equipment over the same rate with a full RED package.

I've seen is happen so many times, RED can get you the job over someone much more experienced/qualified.

September 26, 2015 at 7:54AM

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Really big day for Battery Belt Clip (DSMC) sales! Meanwhile, Mini Mag reader production has ramped up significantly.

I find it hilarious that the Jetpack Expander is (in RED's own words) "...specifically designed for aerial, gimbal, handheld, and other lightweight/remote configurations."

But with the Jetpack Package the camera can only be powered when it is tethered to the operator's belt?

Also, there's no possible way to combine the Redvolt XL Module and the Jetpack Expander, so for the smallest possible configuration you must choose whether you want Jetpack (HDMI out + tethered to a gimbal or operator for power) or Redvolt XL (no HDMI/SDI video out + monitor tethered off the brain via lemo adapter)

IMO the best minimum a la carte production ready config out of the gate if you are starting from scratch:

Raven Brain w/ AC Adapter - 5,950
4.7" Touch LCD - 1,450
Weapon Top Handle - 550
Base Expander - 1,750
AB or V Mount to DSMC - 299
2x 160Wh Batteries w/ Charger - 600 (about)
Wooden Camera Weapon Quickback - 249
Wooden Camera Easy Riser - 160
Wooden Camera LW 15 - 140
2x 120GB Mini - 1,700
Mini Mag Reader - 195
Pelican Case with Cut Foam or Bold Bag - $450 (about)

Total: $13,493 + tax & shipping

Of course, you can sub in a cheap LCD w/ mount and a Sidekick over the touch and maybe find cheaper batteries and case options. You could also get a cheaper top handle, but this is a nice and tidy package.

That said, any way I slice it you are spending at minimum $11-13K for a desirable package.

September 25, 2015 at 3:46PM, Edited September 25, 3:56PM

2
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What happened to 4k for 4k?

September 25, 2015 at 4:22PM

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Claire McHardy
Cinematographer
404

Haha, in hindsight what an absolute pipe dream that was. lol

September 25, 2015 at 4:37PM

7
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That was 3k for 3k. This was supposed to be 4k4all. Fail.

September 26, 2015 at 2:47AM

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Vincent Gortho
none
787

Red never said 4K for $4K. It was BlackMagic that said it, and it must have been 2 years ago by now. There's several cameras now shooting at 4K for well under $4K.

September 28, 2015 at 7:45PM, Edited September 28, 7:46PM

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Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1553

Yes Red did say 4K for $4k a long before Blackmagic. That was before Scarlett was released. Red failed to deliver that time and Scarlett ended up far more than $4k

September 30, 2015 at 4:50AM

0
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Imnusg
90

I'm pretty sure it was "3K for 3K", and Scarlet was supposed to be it.

As for "4K4ALL"... Nope. I give Red about 5 years before they collapse.

September 30, 2015 at 12:32PM

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So, for those of us who aren't familiar with RED, their odd product segmentation, naming and offerings, what exactly is going on here?

The article says the effective sensor size is somewhere between APS-C and MFT, okay..., but RED's site says: "Approximately equivalent to APS-C and Academy 35mm formats)."

Given that the sensor's effective size changes with resolution, either someone is too lazy to figure it all out (I'll include myself here- in hopes I don't sound like an a$$), RED isn't even quite sure yet, or we just don't really know what we're getting and flawed hypotheticals will just pull up on each other.

The "crops" for different shooting resolutions honestly makes this camera sound like a mess. Being the owner of several Blackmagic cameras, I know what a pain a variably smaller-than-S35 sensor is like.

Also, if the sensor is no bigger then S35 at its biggest, wtf is with the EF mount? I guess some people want a PL mount, but given this is sort of being marketed as a $6,000 camera, why isn't there an MFT mount? Blackmagic and Panasonic (along with Sony and their E-mount) have shown how incredibly helpful a shallow flange distance can be for adapting lenses.

And if this camera is expected to be bad in low light, the ability to throw a speed booster on it could mean the difference between it being usable and it being relegated to a niche, which isn't really "4K for all."

September 25, 2015 at 4:36PM

3
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If this was shipping next week I'd probably dive in... but by March we will know how well Ursa Mini 4.6k is doing. Would have been brilliant on RED's part to ship this ahead of Black Magic's schedule.

September 25, 2015 at 5:00PM

15
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Tim
392

they would of made a killing!!! I know I would of dumped my Ursa Mini 4.6k pre-order if they were shipping in the next month.

September 25, 2015 at 5:09PM

4
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"Would of"?

WTF is that supposed to mean?

September 26, 2015 at 6:56AM

3
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David Gurney
DP
1573

They still will. Looking forward to finally seeing footage and frame grabs from their 8K camera.

September 28, 2015 at 7:55PM

0
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Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1553

Yeah: adults "should have" learned how to write that a long time ago.

September 30, 2015 at 12:33PM

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Totally agree Tim. I respect Red company for what they try to bring to the table. The thing is, Sony just do their thing (recently A7s ii and FS5 to name a few) when Red announces things we have to wait for through a teaser so obscure we could certainly do without. I mean, WHAT IS THIS TEASER ALL ABOUT? Instead, what about a footage or 2 shot with the RAVEN? What about a teaser showing what you guys mean by "4K4all"? Why not shipping it in the coming weeks? Now that the URSA mini is out, now that the FS5 is coming? It's like saying : "Ursa mini and Sony clients, we want you to reconsider or cancel your next order" when they should have amazed those of us who shoot "on a budget (say $10K to $12K") by selling it...now? Sometimes, surprise has potential but that teaser has me thinking the Raven was kind of improvised...By March, Sony or Blackmagic will still be selling killer product out of the blue without this "red-kind-of-annoucement" powder.

September 26, 2015 at 9:55AM, Edited September 26, 9:58AM

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Alex :)
227

The 4.6k Ursa Mini has never been more appealing to buy.

Wait...$10k? Make that 2 4.6k Ursa Mini's

September 25, 2015 at 6:25PM

4
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I had three blackmagics break on me. I highly recommend not going that route. Stick with a RED, ARRI, or a Sony F55/F65. Take care

September 26, 2015 at 4:08AM

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Break how? I've run my BMPC all day in blazing heat and haven't had a problem.

September 26, 2015 at 6:58AM

1
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David Gurney
DP
1573

As in hot pixels or everywhere sprinkled with some dead ones, you may not see it. But blow it up on the big screen and you will definitely take a sh*t. There's insane amount of banding and grid lines, especially when completing shadow recovery. Corrupt DNG files. Buttons falling off. I had a new sealed BMCC shipped to me for Blackmagic in california, opened it and there was already a button missing. my face---- http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_in_content_image/nick-y...

September 28, 2015 at 12:41AM

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I find that BMD users are like zealots and they will defend the camera as if it was their baby girl. And every single one of BMD users I've met personally were like this. Even though I've mentioned serious issues we've had with the camera and reasons why I avoid it, apparently it "never happened to them", therefore the problem doesn't exist = Logic.

Not only does it have failing / corrupt file issues, but you get that nasty moire and FPN issue, that even the Ursa Mini was showing in the earliest footage released. How exactly do you ignore that as a problem? Yeah, image looks great, and let's be honest, most BMD users are into BMD for the price than anything really, but there are clear issues with the cameras.

We'll see though, if their 4.6k sensor some how fixes all those issues I would be very impressed. On paper the Ursa mini is much better price for performance

September 26, 2015 at 10:29AM, Edited September 26, 10:43AM

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Jason Han
Cinematographer
265

Maybe. But if you look at Red users, Blackmagic fans are not zealots at all. I've yet to see a Blackmagic fan go nuts over a $2000 top handle.

September 30, 2015 at 12:38PM

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I had 2 blackmagic cameras .. bmcc 2.5k and bmpc 4k .. They have been fantastic .. 10bit prores and 12bit raw .. the bmcc look like a film more than Digital Video and it's amazing in color grading .. the bmpc 4k Also excellent .. I've used them in four projects And I did not complain of anything .. If blackmagic cameras were not exist .. " sony/red/canon and panasonic will not reduce Their cameras prices

September 26, 2015 at 2:54PM, Edited September 26, 2:54PM

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Arthur
174

This is a great price range right now. It's where we're shopping for a new camera at work. The mid-range, ~$7000 to ~$10000 camera market is killer right now. Just about every exciting camera being announced falls into this range this year.

A fully kitted out FS7, Ursa Mini 4.6k, and FS5 all fall in that range. It's nice to see Red contribute, too. Even the highest end package falls in that range, just short of v-mount batteries. Raven isn't a serious contender for us, but for others, for sure.

September 25, 2015 at 7:48PM

9
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David S.
3057

Am I the only one who sees this as one of the best cinema cameras for gimbal work? 3.5lbs for the brains alone? Jetpack module designed specifically for aerial and gimbal use? With the jetpack module the camera weighs only 4 lbs. A 4 pound camera (before lens) on a gimbal that can shoot RAW 4K at 120fps, 3K at 160fps, and 2K at 240fps is pretty damn clutch for steadicam and gimbal operators. I could see this being very popular in rental houses for action/sports filmmakers and cinematographers.

September 25, 2015 at 9:22PM

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Totally not the only one. That 1lb difference between this and the Ursa Mini 4.6k could mean a world of difference when you're operating a gimbal doing 3 minute takes from low angles. I just wish I didn't have to wait till February for this...

September 26, 2015 at 4:51PM

11
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Tim
392

Im excited by this camera as a Scarlet Mx owner. Sits well with my ze zeiss glass and solid 60fps slowmotion should be great. That said not in any rush and will wait for reviews as they head out in the field and make a decision then. Not being able to use pl glass is a bit of a drawback for me but not a dealbreaker. Lighter, dragon dr, auto blackshading would all be awesome.

September 26, 2015 at 2:58AM, Edited September 26, 2:57AM

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Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
519

Non-competitive. Even with rip-off CFast, the Ursa Mini is a beter deal.

September 26, 2015 at 4:16AM

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David Gurney
DP
1573

Don't really understand how CFast is considered a ripoff? Cheaper than minimags, SxS+, etc. In fact, bar consumer ssd's and memory cards, it's about as cheap as storage comes these days, and the price is going down daily...

September 27, 2015 at 5:41PM

9
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Oscar Stegland
DP/Steadicam
1085

I have a couple questions for anybody who can answer.

1. Does the DSMC² Base I/O V-Lock Expander have audio in, and will the camera record pro level audio? Also does it support phantom power mics?

2. Will my Alphatron EVF plug work with this?

September 26, 2015 at 4:18PM

0
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Clayton Arnall
Camera Pointer
214

If you compare this to a Scarlet MX, the Scarlet MX gives you a bigger sensor. If you know how to light, you will never run out of dynamic range on a Scarlet (or an Epic MX, which gives you an even larger sensor), so the added highlight dynamic range will never really be much of a benefit, whereas the larger sensor size will show up as a visual difference all the time.

Add to that the fact that a Scarlet has an easy to change lens mount, and you see why at a similar used price, the Scarlet MX is a better deal IMO.

September 27, 2015 at 7:24AM

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Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
163

All of what RED is showing here is a prototype. This is just a thrown together camera design and poor timing on RED's part. I mean, the URSA 4.6K line will have been purchased, field tested, and reviewed by thousands in the next 5 months before RAVEN even breathes air.

September 28, 2015 at 5:36AM

0
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Razor
VFX Colorist
453

Red's president said that Raven development began at the same time as Weapon. Weapon's are already being used in production, so it's definitely not a prototype. URSA Mini keeps getting delayed, but as soon as I can get my hands on both cameras I'm excited to test them out.

P.S. Love your avatar!! I've been a Softimage user for 13 years, sad to see it go.

September 28, 2015 at 3:37PM

0
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Rich Brown
Director, Producer
241

We will see lots of URSA footage tests before we see RAVEN. But agreed, the URSA vs. RAVEN death matches will be of bloody high interest.

I know who you are Rich. I've seen your reel. Great work! As you know most XSI users are moving into Houdini now. I've already saved my pennies for the upcoming Houdini 15. Can't wait! :)

September 28, 2015 at 9:09PM

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Razor
VFX Colorist
453

It's true, waiting 6 months for Raven is tough. And aside from the slow motion, URSA has some better features. I'll just have to be patient.

And thank you!! I need to update that reel... I'm clinching to Softimage/Redshift/Arnold for as long as I can, and then Houdini it is!

September 29, 2015 at 2:07PM

0
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Rich Brown
Director, Producer
241

I'm here for the RED fanboys :D
*Got me Popcorn*

September 29, 2015 at 12:27AM

0
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Wentworth Kelly
Director/DP/Colorist/Drone Op
2375

Could make a good B camera if you already have RED gear to share with it.

September 29, 2015 at 4:01AM, Edited September 29, 4:01AM

7
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George Nelson
Director / Cinematographer
239

Yeah, just think of the rental rates. Super affordable, for projects of any budget.

September 29, 2015 at 6:17PM

1
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David S.
3057

saved.

October 7, 2015 at 10:53PM

0
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Ryan Duke
231

Really? The only problem anyone has with this Red ripoff is the EF mount? 6k starting price $10k functional price, $13k kitted price, and you have to deal with Red's proprietary-ness. And EF mount = no decent glass?! Come on, when someone says this kind of sweeping generalizations, it sounds like misinformed gear snobbery. There are PL to EF adapters ya know for all you undiscovered Conrad Halls out there. But to imply a GH4 and a Sigma 18-35 couldn't produce professional results? Is a Red Weapon or Alexa some how the only gear that produces cinematic greatness? Have you seen what people can do with a BMPCC? Most still lenses are made for much higher resolution that 4k video. Geoff Murphy's videos comparing super expensive cinema lenses with cheap lenses is a great example. It use to be about the glass when it was film and everyone was using the same bodies and more importantly the same 2 stocks. Now it's about the sensor and color science and personally I don't like Red's sensor and color science. Red One was a great start and had a good image, since then it's been higher rez, smaller body at the cost of image depth. That's the problem I have with this camera is the test footage looks the same if not worse, regardless of the glass on it.

May 12, 2016 at 11:34AM, Edited May 12, 11:47AM

1
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ari k
writer director
1