December 4, 2015

First Footage From RAVEN, RED's New Budget 4.5K Camera

RED RAVEN Footage Carrion 4
Announced back in September, RED's new RAVEN camera got a bump in specs from 4K to 4.5K even before release.

While it does start at $6,000, shooting packages will be up around $10K or more since that's just the body-only price (and you need some accessories and media to get it going). We had a good idea of what to expect as RAVEN shares the same sensor tech as DRAGON, so dynamic range and color will be essentially the same as other cameras with the 6K DRAGON sensor. It will also come with RED's new Standard OLPF, which as we've seen can have a major effect on color. Here's our first clip from RAVEN, shot by RED's people on the new Zeiss Milvus lenses:

“Carrion" unveils footage from the 4.5K RED RAVEN™—RED's most compact camera to date. Shot completely on a RED RAVEN fitted with the new Zeiss Milvus lenses, “Carrion” showcases the versatility and capture capabilities of the camera through stunning images shot in an array of lighting conditions and frame rates. Boasting the incredible dynamic range and color science of the RED DRAGON® sensor, RED RAVEN empowers shooters to achieve best-in-class image quality without having to compromise.

The major specs on RAVEN if you've missed it, with some details on the aspect ratio and crop factors (from full-frame/Vista Vision 35mm) for 4.5K and 4K:

  • 4608 x 2160 DRAGON Sensor
  • Sensor size: 23.04mm x 10.8mm, Diagonal: 25.44mm 
  • Fixed Canon EF Mount
  • REDCODE Compression: 3:1 at 4.5K 24fps, 8:1 at 4.5K 60fps, 15:1 at 4.5K 120fps
  • 4.5K up to 120fps, 4K (4096 × 2160) up to 120 fps, 3K (3072 × 1620) up to 160 fps, 2K (2048 × 1080) up to 240 fps
  • 4.5K Full (2.13:1) — 1.62x crop, 4608 x 2160, 23.04mm x 10.8mm
  • 4.5K WS (2.37:1) — 1.73x crop, 4608 x 1944, 23.03 x 9.72 mm
  • 4K DCI (1.9:1) — 1.87x crop, 4096 x 2160, 20.48mm x 10.8mm
  • 4K HD (1.77:1) —1.96x crop, 3840 x 2160, 19.19mm x 10.8mm
  • 2K ProRes HQ, 422, LT up to 60fps
  • Weight: 3.5 Pounds stripped down
  • Price: $6,000 body only, packages including media coming in around $10,000
RED RAVEN Brain Only 1 Cropped

Similar to the RED ONE MX, this camera is limited to wider aspect ratios at 4.5K, so you won't be able to shoot anything like 16:9 using the entire sensor area. I would expect that we will see more footage over the coming months, but as I said above, it should essentially share the same image quality as DRAGON with a smaller sensor in a lighter package. RAVEN is expected to be released sometime in the first half of 2016, but you can put down a deposit right now if you'd like to get in line early.     

Your Comment

165 Comments

Out of curiosity, is there any intended logic to the video? Is it supposed to be a short film? A commercial?

December 4, 2015 at 11:08PM

0
Reply
avatar
Benjamin Lebeau
Cinematographer, Colorist, Editor
307

So many filmmakers nowadays think they can just put everything in slow mo and it'll work. It's so played out and dull to watch now.

December 4, 2015 at 11:32PM

0
Reply
Jacob Floyd
Writer / Videographer
1221

It looks good, plus it's just one minute of what looks like a demo showcase so don't hate.

December 5, 2015 at 1:44AM

6
Reply
avatar
Ramy Daniel
Cinematographer
322

It's a promo for a camera that features the ability to do 4K slow motion. Seems rather practical that they'd showcase this ability.

December 5, 2015 at 3:34AM

7
Reply

"I was doing that before it was even popular"

December 5, 2015 at 12:58PM

0
Reply

"Let's shoot slow mo because we can!" That seems to be the mentality nowadays.

December 5, 2015 at 4:04PM

0
Reply
Alexandra
Videographer / Documentary Filmmaker
517

That's because they can. Slow motion rules. Always a treat!

December 6, 2015 at 7:23PM, Edited December 6, 7:23PM

0
Reply
Filmmaker Dude
Film stuff
196

Guys it's just a "real world" tech demo, like Reverie was for the 5D in 2009. They hit many relevant tech points, like slomo, skin rendering, shadow and highlight falloff, motion rendering and detail rendering. Meanwhile they throw in some hint of a story, but really that's not the point nor should it have been. Give them a break!

December 7, 2015 at 11:55AM

0
Reply
Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
347

And like Reverie, it would act as a great perfume commercial if they'd only included a picture of the product at the end

December 11, 2015 at 6:26PM

2
Reply
Dan Horne
371

Yeah, Its a promo video checklist made by RED employees (including sales staff) who "shot/directed/edited/sewed curtains/lit it/painted walls" for it: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?138888-Carrion-Shot-on-Red-R...

Something important to point out, with the extremely well tested and solid Fool Control app you can wireless rack focus w/ the AF motors inside EF Glass and control everything on the camera from an iPhone in your pocket.

Fool Control for iOS:
http://mikasky.free.fr/foolcolor/foolcontrol-ios.html

For anyone concerned about the lack of OLPF option, the new STANDARD is solid.
I haven't swapped mine out since getting it.

However, If OLPF, Mount, and wider FOV options are import...

...Scarlet-W will be official soon:
https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/12308014_101...
(note the PL mount & arrows for changing it out for other options).

On a side note, I really really really want RED to make a monochrome version of Raven

December 6, 2015 at 7:02PM, Edited December 6, 7:34PM

19
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

A high res share of the monochrome version for the soon to be announced 5K RED Scarlet-W platform:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/t31.0-8/12339619_101533305328...

December 9, 2015 at 6:09PM, Edited December 9, 6:09PM

1
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

This looks beautiful - absolutely incredible, but so does all their test videos. Until there are boring comparison videos with charts, no one should buy. It's possible that the image from the ursa 4.6k is better, or the red one mx has better motion sensor (thought not better highlight handling) or better in low-light - what OLPH does this guy have? Until then, it's all just speculation. But still, I would put my money on the red raven to be the best bang for your buck of 2016 - just amazing what you can get for roughly 10k all in. I am really proud of Red on this one.

December 7, 2015 at 10:18AM, Edited December 7, 10:34AM

6
Reply
avatar
Ed David
Director of Photography
1583

I still don't think Raven is way better than URSA mini 4.6, but damn, this is how you highlight your product. I don't care what this short film is about, but at last this is a real production, not a bunch of random (slowmo) shots on a beach on a grey raining day.

December 5, 2015 at 12:15AM

15
Reply
David
243

Of course RAVEN much better! URSA canon not work so good with high light.

December 5, 2015 at 2:24AM

0
Reply

Actually thats where you are wrong... BM does better with highlight Recovery.

December 6, 2015 at 9:44PM

10
Reply
avatar
Wentworth Kelly
DP/Colorist/Drone Op
2799

True, but the URSA mini (and most of BM's cameras) suffer from a lot of bugs, and are poor in low light.

February 28, 2016 at 9:23PM

0
Reply
Grant Thorshov
Writer, Director, Cinematographer
88

120fps in 4.5k makes the difference. Image quality looks similar, maybe slightly better in ursa.

December 5, 2015 at 7:31AM

0
Reply
Andy Tokarski
Director, Editor, Colorist
1245

Yeah, the high fps is all over all other 4K cameras in that price range.

December 5, 2015 at 12:45PM

1
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

No, this camera has a proper OLPF, and as such, does not make all your actors look older and less healthy as BM cameras do with the heavy non-defeatable skin sharpening which is the result of their OLPF omission. Fixed noise is also a BM issue, but not here. Latitude is much better on Raven.

December 6, 2015 at 3:49PM

6
Reply
Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
347

looks pretty good. Looks like dragon footage. Stuck with the canon mount instead of PL is going to kill this though. Who wants to drop 10 grand and not be able to put proper glass on the front?

December 5, 2015 at 3:54AM

0
Reply
avatar
Jerome Stolly
1st. Assistant Camera
484

The Footage is incredible. weather or not you like the image batter than BMD is not the issue. the issue is buying into a company that has amazing customer service, and a long track record of upgrade programs and etc. Personally I think this footage blows anything else out of the water including previous red cameras..
As it pertains to glass, most major lens companies, including Angenieux are making EF glass now, and if you plan on using Vintage glass it should be on an Alexa or a Weapon, I HIGHLY doubt anyone looking at this camera as their MAIN A-CAM has a significant PL Lens collection. and if they do they have the money for a more expensive camera.

December 5, 2015 at 5:30AM, Edited December 5, 5:33AM

20
Reply

Of course Red has more experience than BMD, but when I look at just how much both companies improve I think that BMD is the best company in whole industry. They gave us free Resolve (which is also now a free NLE), free Fusion, amazing cameras for the price. Personally BMD is my favorite company at the moment & I think many people think the same about them.

December 5, 2015 at 7:37AM

1
Reply
Andy Tokarski
Director, Editor, Colorist
1245

I agree, I've started to play with Resolve, and it's amazing! I'm still blown away by what the Black Magic Cinema Camera can do for anybody on a budget who understand its limitation, low light, basically.

December 5, 2015 at 8:48AM, Edited December 5, 8:49AM

3
Reply

I can see you have never experienced multiple canceled shoot days due to faulty bm cameras, dead pixels, or shadow banding issues in post. Their software is awesome and they have other on set tools that are great, but their cameras are awful

December 5, 2015 at 12:26PM

2
Reply

I can see your not prepared enough to come to set with 2 camera bodies just in case that happens. I would NEVER roll up to a shoot with just one camera. That's just unprofessional.
You cancelled a shoot because of a dead pixel! haha

December 5, 2015 at 4:08PM

0
Reply

@ cameron I can see you suffer from attention deficit disorder and an inflated ego. First of all I was a location scout. So yeah, that's not my job. Second, they had multiple cameras. I clearly said faulty BM cameras. As in, there were multiple cameras. Third, notice how I said dead pixels. Not a dead pixel. Forth, the cameras suffered and continue to suffer from shadow banding and hot pixels. Do me a favor and don't tell me about being unprofessional and act like you know the situation or who I am. Especially when you use words like your incorrectly. You meant to use"you're". Make sure you have a friend or a parent proof reads your statements. I wouldn't want you to be seen as unprofessional. ;)

December 6, 2015 at 5:05PM

0
Reply

Hey Matt where did I say anything about black magic? And No one I know has a PL glass collection. I rent my glass and my cameras...ya know like a professional does. And my jobs (where I'm shooting and not ACing) usually don't have huge budgets so I'd rather rent a cheaper camera like this and get some really cool glass. I'm not big on modern glass...its the quickest way to soap opera town and exposes the video look really fast. I try to mainly use older vintage lenses like Lomo's or Kowa's or Cooke's if the client wants a shaper look with less "character". And I often pair very expensive glass with cheaper cameras. In fact the last 2 jobs Ive worked as an AC did the same thing (a fidelity investment spot done on an FS7 with the Cooke S4i, A spot for Adobe on the Fs7 with ultra primes,) It gives a different look and aesthetic. I won't be able to do that with this camera making it not that interesting to me. Thanks for yelling at me about black magic though. And telling me the footage that I already complimented was incredible and explaining to me how RED works even though I've been using their cameras for over half a decade and am more than familiar with their customer service and up grade plans. Its not like I pay the bills doing this or anything... Have fun making the internet worse.

December 6, 2015 at 5:30PM

1
Reply
avatar
Jerome Stolly
1st. Assistant Camera
484

Hey I totally hear ya, Jerome. I totally agree it would be a nice option, as would interchangeable olpfs. But for the price, I think it's really good, and sorry I don't think I meant to focus my comment about BMD towards you, actually I think you misread my previous post, didn't mean my thought as a direct response to your comment.matter of fact I won't mention that company anymore it's not productive. Anyhow if PL is your thing there are lots if great cameras! :)

December 6, 2015 at 10:33PM

7
Reply

It feels pretty obvious to me that they are marketing this camera towards the gimbal/steadicam user crowd. It's lightweight, compact, and shoots slow motion at high resolution. It's a cine camera, sure, but I suspect many will target it as the camera that lives on the gimbal or steadicam on big shoots. Like someone else said, many lens companies are making EF mount version of their cine glass these days, but I bet a lot of the reason behind the EF mount is to use high end photo glass with autofocus motors in them, another benefit for gimbal/steadicam ops.

I think people need to not look at this as simply a replacement camera for the Scarlet or a competitor for the BMD Ursa Mini or as the A camera in their arsenal that they sell all their old gear to save up for... I think its calling is a gimbal B-Cam and as a result is in a class of its own (while rigged up and ready to add a lens it sits at just under 5 lbs!) and the industry will realize that once it's out in the open. Just my 2 cents, though.

December 5, 2015 at 11:55AM, Edited December 5, 12:50PM

0
Reply

It could make a very good A camera on a lower budget shoot.

December 7, 2015 at 12:01PM

7
Reply
Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
347

Jerome, for PL you'll want to keep tabs on Scarlet-W:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153327974695415&set=a.78776125...

Scarlet-W will be announced by (or before) NAB.

In terms of Raven, I see it as more as a kick butt indie/gimbal cam well suited for use w/ the fool control app that lets you rack focus w/ the motors inside EF glass.

Remember, no PL glass has internal motors.

Sure those AF motors in EF glass won't top an experienced AC pulling geared high end PL... but for the price... for indie... or gimbal... it'll get you 90% there. That is pretty sweet and frankly HUGE for this price point.

Fool Control for iOS:
http://mikasky.free.fr/foolcolor/foolcontrol-ios.html

December 6, 2015 at 7:09PM, Edited December 6, 7:17PM

7
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

The big question is:
this camera is a true 16 bit 444 like is weapon?

December 5, 2015 at 4:50AM

0
Reply
simon
88

good luck with that BMD 4.6 ur gonna need it, specially on a gimbal or when it breaks down ><

December 5, 2015 at 9:43AM, Edited December 5, 9:43AM

0
Reply

I wonder how the URSA mini would have look under the same conditions...

December 5, 2015 at 9:45AM

3
Reply
AvdS
1504

Oh and one more quick note, not sure if they mention this part here but.. This short demo reel was completely produced by the people who work at red everyday.. like the people who answer your calls.. so not only do they make the cameras, they are talented camera operators, gaffers, and production designers...

December 5, 2015 at 10:06AM

0
Reply

But probably not storytellers, coz storytelling sucks in this clip.

December 6, 2015 at 10:53AM

0
Reply
Andy Tokarski
Director, Editor, Colorist
1245

Oh no, I couldn't get invested in the storyline and characters in this one minute demo clip!

What a clownish statement.

December 7, 2015 at 3:41PM

0
Reply

Of course the storytelling sucks. If the storytelling was good, then RED would be accused of trying to hide their poor quality product behind storytelling. The story telling sucks so you will pay attention the camera. That's (pretty sure) what the video is for. To show the camera.

December 7, 2015 at 9:16PM

11
Reply
avatar
Scot Yount
Director/Editor/Photographer/Motion Graphic Artist
343

yeah, and the fact it was edited and graded all in adobe CC by ONE guy speaks volumes!

December 7, 2015 at 3:05AM

6
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

That's the kind of product video you release. I've yet to see impressive video shot with BMD's URSA Mini 4.6k. Although the URSA 4.6k video released earlier this yet was, ok. Video from Raven was executed to perfection. That'll generate some sales for people on the fence. Not me though, i'm staying with BMD for awhile.

December 5, 2015 at 11:11AM

12
Reply

Its nonsensical, but shows off what the camera can do. Slow motion, check. Low light with high contrast scenes and DR, check. Looks great, check. LOTS and lots of money thrown at the production to make it look like this...check, check, DOUBLE CHECK!!!

I'd like to see a BTS from start to finish. Lets see the original footage and compare it to the grade. Did it take a colorist a week to do it=) 20 man crew to shoot it? That's important info when it comes to convincing people to jump from Canon, Sony or BMD to RED.

Inquiring minds want to know=) Why get this over a C300mII for example, since the price is similar once you get it all rigged up for real world use? The $10k just gets your pinky toe in the door.

December 5, 2015 at 11:58AM, Edited December 5, 12:05PM

0
Reply
avatar
Josh.R
Motion Designer/Predator
966

dude you're comparing a camera that can shoot Raw with a C300mII? I would understand a blackmagic, but a Canon C300mII? Those cameras are for completely different purposes.

December 5, 2015 at 12:25PM

1
Reply

Well clearly RED are trying to muscle in on the Canon/Sony/Blackmagic crowd so clearly it will be compared to those company's cameras.

December 5, 2015 at 1:28PM, Edited December 5, 1:28PM

0
Reply

"Muscle in"? Why are negative terms used so much when talking about Red. Maybe they are just trying to make a fantastic camera. And they are doing it!

It's beyond odd to me that some people think BMD cameras look better than this. They can't be trying to be objective in saying it. They must be just giving their personal preference on color and image quality. Because if the average shooter was going to be given one of two cameras for free, they just had to choose one, you know they would take a Red instead of a BM.

Wouldn't you, really, wouldn't you?

December 5, 2015 at 1:37PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Muscle in is the correct term because RED are aggressive in everything they do and say, and the price is they've set is aggressive. Stop playing semantics and looking for offence where there is none. You're coming off as a fanboy.

December 5, 2015 at 3:57PM

2
Reply

Unfortunately, it didn't take long for the words "fan boy" to come out. Commenters pigeon hole themselves when they bring out these kind of terms.

December 5, 2015 at 5:03PM, Edited December 5, 5:05PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Boo hoo someone called you out. It must be terrible having not the slightest ounce of self awareness. Go back and reread your comments here. Everything you write is snarky and patronizing or a thinly veiled criticism of everyone else but RED. So yes you are coming off as a fanboy. I've said nothing but pure fact. RED are muscling in on that market through their expert hype marketing and aggressive pricing. Everytime we talk about RED people like you appear to defend any perceived slight even when there isn't one.

December 5, 2015 at 7:12PM, Edited December 5, 7:28PM

3
Reply

>You're coming off as a fanboy.

And you're coming off as what? Butthurt?

December 5, 2015 at 10:29PM

1
Reply
avatar
Terma Louis
Photographer / Cinematographer / Editor
1683

And you're coming off as nosy busybody. Got anything else? All this nonsense for saying the Raven would be compared to equivalent offerings of competitors.

December 5, 2015 at 10:37PM

0
Reply

An effort to be polite would serve you well Andrew.

December 6, 2015 at 3:04AM, Edited December 6, 3:04AM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

An effort to be objective would serve you well.

December 6, 2015 at 5:04PM

1
Reply

C300Mk2 does RAW 4K to external recorder. internal 4K 10bit is actually really nice. there are other factors to consider when you get into the $10K price range called a business model. canon's pay for themselves quickly, RED's not so much.

December 5, 2015 at 3:55PM

0
Reply
avatar
Steve Oakley
DP • Audio Mixer • Colorist • VFX Artist
462

I understand what you're saying Steve. But Red has just come into this price range. Red is still thought of as a high end camera.

December 5, 2015 at 5:08PM

2
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Muscling in to the market Gene.

December 5, 2015 at 7:13PM

0
Reply

If Canon, and BMD are able to do this with their cameras then why aren't they doing it? Where is the footage that is like this? I do want to see it. I'm not being sarcastic or attacking. Please link some it it here.

December 5, 2015 at 1:30PM

2
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Why don't you go on Vimeo and search for yourself instead of being a glib fanbboy

December 5, 2015 at 7:15PM

0
You voted '-1'.
Reply

I've seen quite a bit of footage from all the cameras mentioned in the comments here. They do not look as good as this. So, I wanted to see what he was referring to when he said these other cameras look as good.

Try to find things to enjoy doing Andrew. Why spend so much valuable time attacking people.

December 6, 2015 at 3:08AM

3
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Come on people.
It's ok to disagree, but this is becoming ridiculous.
Relax now, and 'carrion' with your lives ;-)

December 6, 2015 at 10:03AM, Edited December 6, 10:03AM

4
Reply
avatar
WalterBrokx
Director, DOP, Writer, Editor, Producer
9668

You attacked me for a simple statement of fact -The Raven will be compared to Sony/Canon/BMD.

You're not merely asking for information, you're just baiting people so i called you on your condescending bullshit. I'm having a wonderful time doing so on this lazy weekend of mine.

December 6, 2015 at 5:13PM, Edited December 6, 5:13PM

0
Reply

You are insecure Andrew.

What I said to you was not an attack. And it was not condescending.

December 6, 2015 at 6:41PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

FYI, post side for the promo was handled in Adobe CC, edited in Adobe Premiere and graded in Adobe SpeedGrade by ONE person!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?138888-Carrion-Shot-on-Red-R...

So yeah, the results of the promo are completely w/in the realm of indie possible and not the result of massive grading suite work by a finishing studio to skew the results.

December 7, 2015 at 2:59AM, Edited December 7, 3:00AM

1
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

Yeah, granted, the video is a little weird.

But, what I'm looking at though is how far image quality has come in the last 5 years. I'm certain this camera could be used on any movie, tv show, commercial shot, documentary, etc. No one would have even dreamed just three years ago you could get this kind of quality, with 120 fps no less(unbelievable!), for $10,000.00.

The detail and color in the wood banister, the ring, and her hand, from 0:04 to 0:06 is beautiful, remarkable, fascinating.

And now 8K is here. Will it be less than two years before most of us can afford 8K? Will Panasonic be the first to make 8K affordable?

I hope everyone that complains about Red stops and just enjoys this ride. We are watching a revolution! SMH!

December 5, 2015 at 1:07PM, Edited December 5, 1:08PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Red has made it possible for even the lower end to participate and enjoy their cameras, and all hater wants to do is hate, GL with BMD hope you rent it

December 5, 2015 at 1:35PM

7
Reply

Red has got to be the most aggressive camera company, even more than GoPro. They have changed the video world more than any other company. They even rushed ARRI into the digital world quicker than I bet they wanted to.

Yes, they have made the highest quality 4K available affordable to the lower end. Now they have 8K. Really can't wait to see footage from it.

December 5, 2015 at 2:04PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

The video looks great, but it doesn't tell us much about the camera except that it can do great slow motion and high resolution. In terms of dynamic range and color, you could get the same image out of a BMPC 4K, which is a terrible camera.

Next I would love to see footage that is more naturalistic and documentary--that will give us a better sense of what the camera can do under less controlled lighting.

December 5, 2015 at 2:16PM

0
Reply
Kenneth Merrill
Director
1321

The color of a BM camera is as good as this one, you say? Could you link some footage here showing that?

December 5, 2015 at 2:33PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

BMD sensor will NEVER come close to the color science in the dragon sensor sorry.

December 5, 2015 at 2:53PM

6
Reply

Congrats, you actually posted something so insane that I signed up for NoFilmSchool JUST to reply to you:

https://vimeo.com/112820539

Here's Rodney Charters telling you that the lowly BMD Pocket Camera matches seamlessly with Alexa, save for the resolution.

So, if a gen one sensor in the pocket camera can match Alexa--a ten year old camera that's still lauded for having the best "color science" of any digital camera, and you have one of the highest rated DPs in our industry telling you this (not some guy running a RED themed rental house), on what planet do you think your statement is correct?

December 5, 2015 at 3:31PM, Edited December 5, 3:43PM

1
Reply
Kholi
Director
227

Is this in response to my question?

December 5, 2015 at 4:09PM

0
Reply
Kholi
Director
227

I know my statement is correct. this backs it up yah

December 5, 2015 at 4:33PM

2
Reply

You think petapixel and DXOmark is a valid argument against Rodney Charters, ASC CSC's working knowledge and extensive hands-on experience with the actual tools?

You'd be willing to actually enter a conversation with Sir Charters with this as your argument? What about John Seale?

Wild.

December 5, 2015 at 4:37PM, Edited December 5, 4:39PM

0
Reply
Kholi
Director
227

an interview with a dp in the BMD booth at a trade show means nothing.
do i think the Blackmagic pocket camera is good? yes
would i want to shoot a feature with it or any blackmagic camera? no
is reds sensor better than BMD? yes

December 5, 2015 at 4:40PM

0
Reply

It means nothing? Coming from the mouth of an un-endorsed, A-list cinematographer? And, you think PETEAPIXEL and DXOMARK are VALID!???!??

It doesn't matter what you would want to do, your statement was presented as fact: No BMD Sensor can match the color of RED sensors.

The reality is that you're deluded if you think that's true, and any colorist that's dealt with BMD footage and Alexa footage will outright tell you that they match dead on save for resolution or moire.

You can easily extrapolate from that. ARRI color > RED Color... by default, your statement is false.

So wild, though... so wild.

December 5, 2015 at 4:45PM, Edited December 5, 4:46PM

0
Reply
Kholi
Director
227

Hey, you can't argue with the guy who shot KULL THE CONQUEROR!

December 8, 2015 at 4:25PM, Edited December 8, 4:25PM

4
Reply

On the other hand, Kholi's appeal to Rodney Charters doesn't "prove" anything either. I could point to Steven Soderbergh or David Fincher and their claims that Red is ahead of the game. It's all really just different strokes for different folks. I think that Red, Arri, and BM can all produce an amazing image in the right hands.

December 5, 2015 at 4:42PM, Edited December 5, 4:42PM

7
Reply
Kenneth Merrill
Director
1321

Not sure how those links backed up anything... DXO scores cameras on their photographic ability, not cinematic. They've never tested any BM or Arri cameras. They don't take into account motion characteristics or the camera's basic color characteristics.

All you proved was that the Dragon sensor is the highest-rated sensor that DXO has ever rated...

December 5, 2015 at 4:39PM

3
Reply
Kenneth Merrill
Director
1321

Don't bring Arri into this. their color science is superior to anything out there

December 5, 2015 at 4:41PM

0
Reply

Well, Kholi's argument is: some people believe BM cameras can match Arri's very well. Arri has superior color science. So, BM has superior color science.
That's why I brought it up.
Also, don't tell me what to do ;)

December 5, 2015 at 4:44PM

0
Reply
Kenneth Merrill
Director
1321

just because a colorist can match a short clip to another clip doesnt make it superior.
I mix and match Gh4 footage, a7s footage and inspire footage to red all the time.. doesnt mean i want to shoot a whole budgeted project with those cameras.
this thread is about the Raven, and for SOME reason BMD people want or need to hate...
we could go on all day but whats the point. enjoy the BMD guys

December 5, 2015 at 4:48PM

0
Reply

haha for some reason, this statement sounds like something chris crocker would say

December 6, 2015 at 5:12PM

0
Reply

Kholi,

A GH2 hacked can be cut with an Alexa.

I don't know if your reply was for me. But I was asking about this Red camera, and how the commenter compared it to BM. I didn't ask about Alexa.

December 5, 2015 at 4:47PM

1
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

ANything can be cut with anything. Please, read what I said, listen to what someone more experienced than you has said:

Matching flawlessly isn't the same as "a GH2 can cut with Alexa".

GoPros cut with Alexa all the time, there has never been a single voice that bellowed "this matches flawlessly with Alexa."

The point is pretty clear, no matter how you'd like to take it: ask any colorist that's dealt with both and the reaction is always the same, BMD cameras don't just "cut" with Alexa, they're downright similar in color.

By extension, and I feel this is just obvious... if BMD is a dead ringer for Alexa, how on earth can it not match RED, which is behind Alexa in color?

I feel like this is simple...

December 5, 2015 at 4:51PM

0
Reply
Kholi
Director
227

you win bro have fun with that BMD

December 5, 2015 at 4:56PM

0
Reply

BMD cannot be a dead ringer for an Alexa. What in the f is going on in this comment thread?

December 5, 2015 at 5:15PM, Edited December 5, 5:40PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

no idea Gene. sounds like a bunch of people who spent their money on BMD to me

December 5, 2015 at 5:18PM

0
Reply

So, you're saying you disagree with Rodney Charters? I'm pretty sure if I went back to a few new articles I could find more DPs and post specialists saying the exact same thing.

Are YOU saying they're wrong?

December 5, 2015 at 5:51PM

0
Reply
Kholi
Director
227

I'm saying your kinda creeping me out Kholi. give it up, I told you, "you win"

December 5, 2015 at 5:57PM

7
Reply

I find it a shade more creepy that you're on every forum selling RED... just a little.

A tiny bit, but a lot a bit.

Carry on, and I hope you get your day rate.

December 5, 2015 at 8:14PM

1
Reply
Kholi
Director
227

Thanks Kholi

Ahh I see your a mod on the blackmagic forum... So basically you sell BMD all day every day cheers!!

December 5, 2015 at 8:58PM, Edited December 5, 9:37PM

4
Reply

Says the guy renting out RED cameras and only RED cameras! So basically you sell RED all day every day.

December 5, 2015 at 9:59PM

0
Reply

Andrew, why Can't I get excited about a new red camera i have placed a pre order for? this thread is about the raven, yes i am excited about it, yes i own red cameras, yes i rent them, whats your point?
haters need to go bark up another tree... i deserve to be excited.. did you watch the video? PS i own more than red cameras, and use them, they don't rent so good however, never tried to rent a BM, no one ever asked me for one.

December 5, 2015 at 10:03PM, Edited December 5, 10:04PM

2
Reply

Well surely you can see the hypocrisy of calling someone a Blackmagic shill when a part of your own business is renting out RED cameras! Maybe chill out calling people creepy too.

As always the tone becomes incredibly hostile and partisan in a discussion involving RED, and frankly it's always those who are 'excited' behind it.

December 5, 2015 at 10:23PM

7
Reply

Andrew, I was responding to a fellow who made an account to do battle with me.. He gave me crap for posting positive comments about red, on more than this forum, obviously reading as much as I am, then I realize he is a moderator for the BMD forums... So yah I'm gonna say something

December 5, 2015 at 10:33PM, Edited December 5, 10:34PM

0
Reply

Gene, sorry, Matthew, why can't i call out bullshit when i see it. I was just excited to trap someone flailing in their own excrement. As to your earlier unanswered point i did see the video and liked what i saw very much, then again i'm quite easily pleased.

December 5, 2015 at 11:09PM

2
Reply

I'm glad you liked the video. email me if you want good rates on one after march, oh for the record i rent a lot more than cameras too, my Grip & electric package, lens kits, and easy rig, dolly, and vans can all be bundled and we travel so who knows maybe we could work for you one day, ill make you a great deal =)

December 6, 2015 at 7:24AM

0
Reply

Matthew, genuinely if i'm ever in New York for a project i will remember to look you up. You're a very humorous person.

December 6, 2015 at 4:54PM, Edited December 6, 4:54PM

1
Reply

hehe you seem like an ok guy no hard feelings

December 6, 2015 at 8:11PM

3
Reply

Kholi,

If you're seeing him in every thread, then, you are also there in them. So you must also be creepy?

Odd how these type of reactions come out of some people when talking about Red. It can only mean they see real substance in Red, and are feeling threatened, and probably jealous of, Red.

December 6, 2015 at 3:13AM, Edited December 6, 3:26AM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Hate to Hate, but seriously, BMD makes disposable products that are in some ways a step up from phone cameras. For the price of a BMD camera, you'd be better served RENTING an Alexa or Epic Dragon for narrative work.

Think about that.
BMD cameras ARE disposable products.

So, if you are going to dispose 1K to 10K for a short/indie feature/what-ever project, then why not just DISPOSE the budget (you're money) on a better camera by RENTING it?!

Epic-D is about $1000~1200/wk from a house,
Alexa a tad more.

For $5K you got at least a 1 month shoot on a 6K Dragon or hell 2x ana on an opengate Alexa

Still want that BMD camera to shoot your "best" work on?

But hey, if you just want something to learn on, or make skate/music videos with... well then anything will do... like the camera in your phone.

December 6, 2015 at 7:43PM, Edited December 6, 8:00PM

6
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

This is kind of a weird argument, you're using the guy who shot Kull, some sitcom looking movies and a bunch of tv, and saying he's the greatest, but what about demanding guys like David Fincher who are all about Red?

Now for me, both cameras look great. I haven't used either though. I tend to really love the look of Red cameras, when I see something shot with them they always seem very cinematic. Blackmagic can also look great, but sometimes it errs more on the side of kind of a bland look. I don't know why that is, if it's just the types of productions shooting whatever, but it's interesting. Still may buy an URSA though.

December 8, 2015 at 4:53PM

0
Reply

I imagine no matter what I post, your mind is made up.

All I'm saying is that a good colorist could have made footage from a lot of different (some sub-par) cameras look like that.

December 5, 2015 at 3:04PM, Edited December 5, 3:04PM

0
Reply
Kenneth Merrill
Director
1321

Kenneth,
please give some links here that show what you say, "a lot of different (some sub-par) cameras look like that." I want to see the footage. Colorists can't make the image look like this camera just by a grade. Please put some links here of the videos you are talking about.

December 5, 2015 at 5:01PM

5
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

No offense Kenneth; are you using a Dell 6bit panel monitor?

December 6, 2015 at 8:07PM, Edited December 6, 8:11PM

3
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

Heck, look at the film Silent House. Very similar look to this video. Shot on 5D.

We still don't know how the Raven performs in high-contrast or low-light situations.

December 5, 2015 at 3:06PM

0
Reply
Kenneth Merrill
Director
1321

Silent house looks like a student project. Yes the color is nice. Canon has nice color. But everything else looks 5 years old.

Do you have links that show what you originally said, that BM4K looks as good as this? I've never seen BM looking as good as this.

December 5, 2015 at 4:51PM, Edited December 5, 5:16PM

5
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Kenneth, do you work for BMD too?

The promo clearly shows both high contrast AND low-light.
(I do not consider "no lights" to be "low-light")

December 6, 2015 at 8:13PM, Edited December 6, 8:14PM

0
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

first place winner at the CameraImage Festival was shot on super 16mm..it's about the art of cinematography..

December 5, 2015 at 3:02PM

1
Reply
Stephanie Mahalis
graduate film student
249

I don't like it, looks quite digital, maybe it's the motion.

December 5, 2015 at 4:17PM

0
Reply
chris
365

It looks cold. Maybe that is it?

December 6, 2015 at 3:16AM

6
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Just curious if I missed the specs somewhere - was this shot at 120 fps at 15:1? Or was it some other framerate with a better compression?

December 5, 2015 at 7:22PM, Edited December 5, 7:22PM

1
Reply
Clayton Arnall
Camera Pointer
200

My gut is telling me 60fps and better compression, but regardless it looks great. One thing I'm starting to notice more after watching it is how nice the standard olpf looks. It's gonna be a game changer

December 5, 2015 at 7:33PM

0
Reply

Yup, standard is quite good.
I haven't felt the need to take mine out.

I wager Standard Is the set-it-and-forget-it option many want.

December 6, 2015 at 8:10PM

9
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

here is some interesting information about the post production which i thought was interesting for those wondering how they pulled off the look.. you all have access to the tools they used.
" Originally Posted by Jarred Land "
BTW, I've had a few private messages asking about post, This was completely done in Adobe Creative Cloud, Dan edited in Adobe Premiere and graded in Adobe SpeedGrade.

December 5, 2015 at 7:56PM

0
Reply

URSA Mini 4.6K package: $6860
URSA Mini $5000
URSA EVF $1500 (EVF needs to be included because you can’t see S#!T without one on sunny days).
Lexar 128 gig CFast $360

Red Raven package: $9950
Includes:
4.75 in LCD (Which Red has designed to work with a loupe)
120 gig Mini Mag

Price difference $3090 + a few hundred extra for the eventual Red Loupe.

What you are getting for an extra $3090

1) Reliability as Red is used numerous large productions everyday. BM cameras have a history of constant issues, especially at launch.
2) Red has the BEST customer service. Since July, I’ve been chatting with Red and they answer always answer the phone and emails are replied to quickly. The CEO of Red replies to your comments on the forum. BM has a reputation for crap customer service. After years of using Canon and Sony, Red CS is so refreshing.
3) Producers know and are used to Red so you will get more jobs with a Red. More bookings = more money. Red is used on number major productions. BMC on no major productions except as C-Cams.
4) IMO, a better image.
5) Red Raven body is 3.5lbs and great form factor for gimbals. BMC Mini = 5 lbs and the body design reminds me of the first VCR our family got when I was a kid in the 80’s.

So yeah, for $3090 extra for Raven you are getting a lot.

December 5, 2015 at 8:17PM

4
Reply
avatar
Gene Sung
DP / Director
706

Gene knows his stuff, and is 100% correct

December 5, 2015 at 8:40PM

2
Reply

He is but your booyah attitude is doing nothing to dispel the perceived arrogance of RED users and owners.

December 5, 2015 at 9:43PM, Edited December 5, 9:44PM

0
Reply

lol

December 5, 2015 at 10:13PM

1
Reply

Andrew is just in a bad phase of life or something.

Andrew,
I hope you're feeling better soon. I hope you find some things that make you happy. I hope you find goals that give you passion and fill your time. There's lots going on in life.

December 6, 2015 at 3:21AM

1
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Gene, I also hope you overcome your split personality disorder. Hopefully Matthew and Terma, your alter egos, can be put to rest and your paranoia eased. All the best.

December 6, 2015 at 5:02PM

7
Reply

?

December 6, 2015 at 6:43PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Agree. Much better than any BM cam by a country mile.

December 6, 2015 at 3:43PM

7
Reply
Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
347

What's the problem with Canon-only mount? You wanna tell me you have big sets of good PL glass, yes? Rent Weapon then.

December 5, 2015 at 9:05PM

0
Reply
avatar
Terma Louis
Photographer / Cinematographer / Editor
1683

Exactly. People complaining about PL glass prob don't own any, besides the raven is more of an entry level red cam, the new scarlet should have interchangeable lens mounts and olpfs

December 5, 2015 at 9:15PM

2
Reply

Probably the right mount for drone and gimbal operation as well.

December 5, 2015 at 9:46PM

9
Reply

Man, I love the Dragon sensor.

December 6, 2015 at 3:36AM

2
Reply
avatar
Zack Wallnau
Cinematographer & Tinkerer
603

Looks like a great camera for beauty/fashion video. Stuff where you want a tack sharp highly polished image out of the camera.

I personally don't think it's as suited for narrative applications, but no camera is going to be a silver bullet.

December 6, 2015 at 6:59AM

4
Reply
Pat Heine
Producer.
458

Great video, heavily produced but certainly showcases the camera. As an avid Scarlet X owner/user of almost 3 years shooting almost exclusively on EF glass (mostly Zeiss) I'll almost certainly get this or the new Scarlet. But I'll wait for the queue 's and reviews and see if the Scarlet is worth the extra cash. The PL mount is certainly a factor (more for hiring then buying).

December 6, 2015 at 7:35AM

6
Reply
avatar
Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
761

Yah Dean If I COULD wait I would wait for the Scarlet-W. I have plans for the raven this summer however. I can only hope there is a Path for the Raven to Upgrade. Given Red's History there is no reason to think there won't be. I can enjoy my raven this summer, hopefully earn some money with it, then apply that money to upgrade the camera. However even if I didnt have dreams of upgrades, this camera serves as an awesome pick up and shoot option, and will be less stressful than walking around with a $30-50K camera by my self, or small crew

December 6, 2015 at 8:57AM

0
Reply

But the sensor size is much smaller, so lens coverage will work differently. In important ways even a Red One MX will give you a nicer image because the sensor area is greater, which affects look more, in my opinion, than the slight color fidelity advantage that Dragon gives you, which is easily equalled in post.

December 6, 2015 at 3:42PM

0
Reply
Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
347

the crop factor isn't too much. and umm the Red One was a TANK, and was extremely HEAVY. for what its designed to do the Raven is incredible..

December 6, 2015 at 4:30PM

0
Reply

The lighter form factor, auto blackshade and dragon DR will be most welcome for mx shooters. I spend a lot of time shooting 60 fps in 3k, even uhd 4k on the raven i believe is a slightly wider FOV than the mx at 3k. But yeh the sensor size and pl mount option has me waiting for Scarlet... 4.5k is resolution enough for me. But would love full S35 FOV... got gimbal work I wouldnt see it as an issue though. But im mostly on a pod or shoulder for narrative and doco work

December 6, 2015 at 6:51PM

0
Reply
avatar
Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
761

It depends on your shoots. Red One MX built up lightly was a perfect well distributed weight for Steadicam - less means not enough inertia. For me the crop factor is important - but this is all highly subjective. I have never run out of dynamic range on MX, ever, so my need for more does not exist - but then again I do not shoot without lighting, so each person is different.

December 7, 2015 at 12:06PM

5
Reply
Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
347

... For the negative comments here,

Comparing Red camera and BMD, and Canon is a bit weird to me.

Here is the reason.

BMD camera came out for "Affordable- Cine camera", and it has a reputation of bad C/S, bad software, some of critical errors on the cameras.

Canon camera (C300, C100 series) were created for documentary, television show, media purposes.

Sony's case, it has both Cine (F5, F55, F65), and media (FS100, FS700, FS5, FS7) and so on.

But, RED camera was specialized to use in narrative film set, or High-end commercial until now.

People constantly argue BMD is better than Raven or something.

Okay...But, so many known films were used RED. Look, Lord of the ring series were shot by old MX sensor - Not even dragon sensor. How can you compare BMD camera and RED? I just can't understand it.

Yes, I've shot with Ursa. I hated it, because of the so many times error on the set with medias, unbelievably big files, image wasn't that great comparing to the amount of the data, ergonomics were weird, menu was so terrible that I really needed to learn it from beginning.

Even Mini Ursa 4.6 is about $3000, I would not go for it. Why? because the cost of the buying hard drive will be cost me much more than using amazing Red's R3D codec in 6 month.

$10k to buy this kit is a steal.

It's even more shocking price than buying FS7.

December 6, 2015 at 6:30PM, Edited December 6, 6:30PM

2
Reply
avatar
Minu Park
Director
234

Small correction, The Hobbit was shot on MX in 3D. LOTR was 15 years ago on 35mm film.

Also, URSA is not that bad. RED had many problems before too, since the first builds of R1M. Choice is good.

December 7, 2015 at 3:22AM

5
Reply
avatar
Terma Louis
Photographer / Cinematographer / Editor
1683

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. LOTR was shot on film. BlackMagic file sizes are huge? What are you talking about? At least BlackMagic gives you the option to shoot ProRes at full resolution. The Reds only shoot 2K in ProRes. Maybe you're talking about raw. Well, the BlackMagics shoot raw to DMGs, which have a higher bitrate than Red's.

CFast media is a rip-off, but not as big a rip-off as Red's proprietary media. And at least a FEW different vendors use it.

And what "media errors" are you talking about? Funny how the people badmouthing BMD always make vague references to "reliability," but never state specifics or provide facts.

And who cares if "known films" used this or that? Some "known films" looked like shit, and were shot on major-brand "cinema" cameras.

And you seem not to have noticed that everything shot on earlier-generation Reds was essentially sepia-toned. Even Red's own demo footage.

I don't care what the brand is, as long as it delivers good quality and longevity at a good price.

December 12, 2015 at 4:29AM

2
Reply
David Gurney
DP
2051

One thing has happened to be noted:

at least commenters at this web site have gotten beyond saying, "5D looks better", to every video clip that is posted.

Now they just have to get beyond saying, "BM looks better, or as good", to every video clip that is posted.

December 6, 2015 at 6:46PM

4
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

I think comparable footage could be gotten with similarly priced cameras, the Raven at this moment appears to be nothing really special and if anything it's quite plastic looking.

December 6, 2015 at 10:24PM

3
Reply
Barry Badge
Producer
161

Ok. So link some examples here. I've been asking. No one has linked footage from cameras at this price range that look this good.

I am sure this camera could be shot and graded to look warmer. I'm sure it can do other things not seen in this example. So maybe we all need to see footage with different internal settings and grading.

But, I just can't agree with you about this camera. This footage looks fantastic. It's high end 4K at a lower end price.

December 6, 2015 at 11:36PM, Edited December 6, 11:40PM

2
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Well RED clearly wanted to show it's fixed the blue channel clipping problem they had, so they've avoided pushing a magenta tone here no doubt. Whether they have i don't know since i haven't had requests from the DPs i work with for RED recently.

Look on Vimeo for any footage you want, plenty of decent things. Just from memory if you search for 'Blackmagic 4k romeo philip bloom' or something like that you'll see some very nice skin tones from a BMD camera. Very natural. You could rent 'Blue is the warmest color' that looked lovely, natural and cinematic with C-log on the C300.

I only thought this was decent, nothing spectacular. Felt a bit like RED blowing smoke, all over the set and up my ass. Just joking don't lynch me.

December 7, 2015 at 12:27AM

3
Reply
Barry Badge
Producer
161

I've seen footage from BM cameras that were from Philip Bloom. Overall I'm left wanting from BM color science. Maybe flat, not sharp enough contrast, are the words I could choose to describe BM color science. But yeah, the detail looked really good. And I've seen the Blue video you talked about. Canon does have nice color. I never would argue about that. I'm just unimpressed with all other characteristics of Canon video. It's not worth the money to me.

I'm not at the point of spending $10,000.00 to buy a camera. Right now I'm at about $1000.00 each, for the 2 cameras I've bought so far, which by the way, with camera technology the way it is now, is still a very good level. But if I do go to the $10,000.00 level, and I may within 2 years, this Red will be the camera I will buy. If Kineform had customer support in the US I would go for the Kinemax 6K. I like it's picture a lot. I think I can see already, though, I don't want to deal with having to ship my camera to China if I had a tech problem with it. But, it has 14 stops, and 12 bit, at 6K. And 16 stops, 14 bit at 3K. 100fps at 4K. That camera literally makes my mouth water.

Zacuto gave a nice review of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkqR3x8dlqE

December 7, 2015 at 1:49AM, Edited December 7, 1:49AM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Here's another clip from the Kinemax 6K. What do you think of the color palette? The color makes me feel like a kid at a candy store:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCh-MSwM9sE

December 7, 2015 at 1:58AM

1
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

One more Kinemax.

What do you think of the flesh tones from 1:07 to 1:11? To me it is excellent, not just good.

But what do you think?

https://vimeo.com/124684859

December 7, 2015 at 2:03AM, Edited December 7, 2:09AM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Hi Gene, Yeah that looks rather brilliant doesn't it-body wise and image wise. I always forget about Kinemax, but as you say the apparent lack of support in the west is a downer. I'd really like to see it in person, but don't know any local rental house that stocks it.

The image from the BMD 4k sensor certainly isn't as flat as other cameras, don't think it has a massive dynamic range, it's also got a host of other problems that again may have been fixed. It certainly isn't as good as the sensor they have for the cinema and pocket camera.

The RAVEN may be a really good camera, i'm just right now this minute not 100% convinced it's the best investment for someone looking to buy. The footage i'd like to see in a better environment than youtube no doubt and is by no means terrible-it's good. It's just the style of the video doesn't really reveal all it could about the camera. No doubt there'll be more to see from RED themselves before release.

December 7, 2015 at 1:38PM

5
Reply
Barry Badge
Producer
161

Barry,

"brilliant" is the word you used. That's a better choice of words than mine. Brilliant is what it is.

December 8, 2015 at 12:44AM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Barry if you worked a little higher end you would realize that skin color is always tweaked in post at least a little. It can easily be fixed, and always is reconsidered, in every shot, anyway. Since Redcolor 04, it's not a problem on any Red cam, even if your post chain is primitive. BM cameras' problems cannot be fixed.

December 7, 2015 at 12:12PM

15
Reply
Robert Ruffo
Director/DP
347

Hi Robert. Not sure what i've done to annoy you, but i apologize if i've slighted or erred you.

I can only judge what has been shown and it looks sterile. Possibly as Gene stated a result of the look they were going for, or maybe a result of the lens they used. I'll leave you to your high end work you've taken a break from to correct me. all the best, Barry.

December 7, 2015 at 3:11PM

0
Reply
Barry Badge
Producer
161

Red is plastic, okay, then Blackmagic is what, raw meat looking? LOL

December 7, 2015 at 3:24AM

0
Reply
avatar
Terma Louis
Photographer / Cinematographer / Editor
1683

Well meat is certainly more appetizing than plastic and you can cook it to your spec easily. Good analogy.

December 7, 2015 at 10:42AM, Edited December 7, 10:51AM

0
Reply
Barry Badge
Producer
161

Barry

In reading your comments I appreciate you make effort to be productive and polite. Hope we are able to continue exchanging comments, when we can.

December 7, 2015 at 9:45PM, Edited December 7, 9:45PM

4
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Yeah, that's not said all that often. So your wish seems to have been granted.

December 12, 2015 at 4:30AM

1
Reply
David Gurney
DP
2051

(Disclaimer: I own and shoot red canon and sony)

I think us film makers & video producers need to get past brand comparisons and brand loyalty. We don't do our industry any favours when we get behind any one brand blindly. We ahould be a pain in the ass for manufacturers, never satisfied and always asking for more. Not that I don't think we have incredible tools at incredible prices (and it looks like Raven is one very strong example) I think remaining brand agnostic and open to different cameras and brands is a must. We need to keep manufacturers on notice... we are ready to leave at anytime if something that does the job better, easier, cheaper and more reliably comes along, we are gone. Personally I like Red for the great image that is cheaper than Arri (can't afford) and redcode and been really reliable for me. I like canon too but cant afford two mid range models. Anyway I guess I feel the brand vs brand thing reminds me of xbox vs playstation. We should all be pushing the manufacturers of cameras we own, rent and don't use to keep improving rather than applauding every announcement. Im not saying anyones done that specifically on this thread has done that. I'd just love to see more expectation and pressure placed on manufacturers rather then fellow filmmakers.

December 7, 2015 at 1:53AM, Edited December 7, 1:53AM

1
Reply
avatar
Dean Butler
Writer Director Shooter Editor
761

The banter and mutual trolling on the interwebz is fun and dandy, but if we're being serious here, I'm quite happy with how digital cinema progressed for the last 10 years so far and there's no indication of stopping - super sensitive pixels, HDR, wider color gamut, curved sensors, lightfield sensors, graphene sensors, bayer system alternatives, quantum-film. Great, bring it, I love this stuff already.

Just 15 years ago we kids couldn't even dream about having quality cinema gear in our reach. Now when literally anything is possible, you deliver the content. Step up your game, cause if toys are superb, but the content sucks - what's the fokkin point?

December 7, 2015 at 3:38AM

5
Reply
avatar
Terma Louis
Photographer / Cinematographer / Editor
1683

Looks good but I can't make out if it's the camera or the lighting that is making it look amateurish/digital.

December 7, 2015 at 5:35AM

14
Reply
Wildlite
192

if this short demo looks "amateurish" then half of us should jump off a cliff right now

December 7, 2015 at 6:22AM

10
Reply

Is that an active ef mount? I would like to use my Sigma 18-35 on the Raven.

And.. shouldn´t be coming a price adjustment for the Scarlets??

December 7, 2015 at 7:16AM

0
Reply

if the lens has an EF mount it should work. I would double check if fool control will work with that lens.

And if you mean the scarlet MX, or dragon, I suspect there will be a TON of used red cameras on the market soon

December 7, 2015 at 8:43AM, Edited December 7, 8:44AM

3
Reply

I think the 8K camera now ready to be released to the public has something to do with Red 4K being available for all.

December 7, 2015 at 9:51PM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

Ok after reading most of the comments on here I am really starting to hate the gaming console type fanboy crap that is creeping into filmmaking. I really don't want to hear from anyone that you are a better filmmaker because you shoot with a particular brand. I would never want to work professionally with anyone that professes that kind of rhetoric!

December 7, 2015 at 11:45AM

1
Reply
avatar
Joseph Lindsay
Director of Photography/Motion Designer
300

Most commenters are saying they are a better filmmaker because of the camera they use? Which commenter did that?

There really was only one commenter starting ill feelings in this thread---and he was very persistent in doing it. His deep negativity, and mud slinging is what gave negative light to other people. There is no moderating of comments in this web site. No one running this blog is warning commenters when they get out of line. So that lone wolf commenter ran amok. I am pretty sure his influence brought out comments from a few others that they may not have felt the need to say otherwise.

But, I don't think anyone has said they are a better shootist and storyteller because they use this or that camera. Yes, I, and others, may be saying this Red is the best you could find in the United states for the money. But I know I wouldn't (nor do I believe anyone else here would) think and assert they are a better filmamker for thinking that about Red.

Lone wolf bomb throwing commnters always ruin the vibe of a comment thread. That commenter should have been banned from commenting in this thread and warned about permanent banning if he kept up is attacks in any other thread.

December 7, 2015 at 9:56PM, Edited December 7, 10:11PM

1
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

I can speak for my self. I am super stoked about the release of this footage from a camera I have ordered. I can't wait to work with it, and I get bent out of shape when people feel they have to come and try and tear it down. I apologize if I posted any silliness. I have since relaxed hehe

December 8, 2015 at 8:37AM

8
Reply

I've said things in threads I wish now I didn't say. I guess I have to allow myself that I am a human that lives and learns.

December 9, 2015 at 1:47AM

0
Reply
Gene Nemetz
live streaming
1967

WTF is with that sensor size? 2X crop? Ridiculous!

December 12, 2015 at 4:15AM

7
Reply
David Gurney
DP
2051

By rough estimation, the 4.5 WS mode is somewhere around 1.7~1.8x "crop" compared to photo 35mm, a few hairs less wide then APS-C, and wider then Academy 35. Raven just screams for a focal reducer. I seriously hope someone makes an EF-EF speed-booster for full frame glass to APS-C sensors - I've already seen a demo of a prototype doing exactly that, so i know it can be done AND there is a large market of APS-C cameras w/ EF mounts... only question in my mind is who is going to take/make all that money AND how soon will it happen.

January 23, 2016 at 11:34PM, Edited January 23, 11:40PM

0
Reply
avatar
Daniel Reed
Hat Collector
1287

RED's Raven promo goes to show that a camera is only as good as the story it is filming, and the crew behind the production. In the end, a camera is a camera is a camera. However, It is nice to see RED taking initiative as far as the "Budget" cinema industry goes.

February 28, 2016 at 9:25PM

15
Reply
Grant Thorshov
Writer, Director, Cinematographer
88