August 2, 2012

The Kinefinity KineRAW S35 is a Sony F3 with RAW Output for Half the Price ($6k)

It's natural for anyone to be skeptical when a new camera is announced. We were skeptical that RED could actually make a camera that did everything they said it could do (I think they have finally delivered with EPIC and SCARLET). Right now there are still quite a few people who are skeptical of the Digital Bolex and the Blackmagic Cinema Camera. The same also goes for a Chinese camera that just might surprise the world and be the most affordable Super 35mm sensor camera in existence. That camera, the Kinefinity KineRAW S35, is nearing completion, and we've got quite a bit of footage and an interview explaining the entire camera in detail. For a possible $6,000 shipping price, the digital cinema camera industry might just be looking over their shoulders at China.

These are courtesy of James Miller and Dan Chung of DSLR News Shooter. First is some footage that James graded, and then an interview that explains basically everything about the camera.

Yes, the representative for the Kinefinity is not a native English speaker, but Dan repeats anything that might be hard to understand (so let's be adults about that):

These are the current specs as they stand now:

  • Super 35mm sized CMOS sensor
  • Dual raw recording, uncompressed 12bit linear cinemaDNG (800Mbps) or 10bit log90 GoPro Cineform RAW (100Mbps), uses regular 2.5 inch SSD or HDD (shoot and dump)
  • KineRAW Mags offer guaranteed cinemaDNG speeds, but aren't necessarily required
  • 4K Sensor (2K recording)
  • 2K 1-24fps, 1080p 1-30fps, 720p 1-60fps. (Not yet finalized)
  • ISO 800 - 10,000 with minimal noise
  • 12-stops of Dynamic Range
  • Interchangeable lens mount, supports PL (standard), Canon EF, Nikon F, OCT-19
  • PL mount version 280mm*135mm*155mm, approx. 4kg.
  • Price: around $6,000
  • Availability: Soon in China, possibly before the end of the year worldwide

It's easy to be skeptical when nothing exists, but now there is a fully designed body and some actual, real-world footage to go along with it. At $6,000 (assuming everything works the way it should), this would really blow open the camera industry. With a 4K sensor, the KineRAW S35 only records 2K, but it retains the advantages of the 4K sensor, and that means you should be getting an actual, fully resolved 2K lines of resolution. Noise should also benefit greatly as much of it can be averaged out when the sensor is finally brought down to 2K.

The company may also follow in the footsteps of RED and allow the camera to be upgraded to be able to shoot 4K when they are ready to make that a reality. Since the sensor is 4K, all that remains for a possible 4K camera is the back-end hardware, which is far more difficult to do with uncompressed footage (slightly easier with Cineform).

For more footage, Dan Hudgins, who has been working with the camera, has told us that Kinefinity, the company behind the camera, has posted more footage to the their website. The links to that cineform footage can be found below. Here is what he had to say:

Kinefinity ™ has posted some more Cineform ™ clips on their web site for people to download...Be sure to also download the Cineform ™ codec and the 3D-LUT that go with those clips for color correction when you play them in Quicktime ™.

The 3D-LUT are mated to the ISO and K value used when shooting so need to be installed for the clips above [below] to play with the right “one light” color correction, the look group used is intended for having the shots graded, so graded results would look better. Various monitoring LUT can be loaded into the camera and selected with the encoder knob from a quick button menu labeled “look”, and depending on which “look” is selected the camera makes a corresponding 3D-LUT in each shot folder, in this case the same “look” was used for all my test shots so far, that are linked to above for those MOV files. You will also need to drag and drop the 3D-LUTs onto the Cineform ™ LUT tool in the Cineform ™ program folder.

As for Cineform:

Cineform Firstlight/Davinci Resolve/Speedgrade/Scratch could be used for grading/rendering. May use the Cineform decoder settings-->Demosaic Type-->advanced details to make image look sharper.

While this camera isn't quite a Sony F3, it's huge advantage is the fact that it will be able to record RAW. Kinefinity is also working on a Super 16mm sized sensor camera and a Super 8mm sized sensor camera. Both of those, however, are not nearly as exciting as the large sensor camera in terms of price/performance. If you're wondering where this company came from, they have been designing cameras for space and industrial purposes for a while, but this is their first time making a camera for filmmaking. Of course, until I have a camera in my hand shooting RAW footage, I'll remain the slightest bit skeptical about the camera -- but the company's track record along with some new footage and a working body is starting to make this camera look like it could be the real deal.

Links:

Sample Clips:

[via DSLR News Shooter - Graded & DSLR News Shooter - Interview]

Your Comment

90 Comments

I wouldnt risk being an early adopter for this product. The formfactor looks cheap and rushed. The menu system looks like its from the early 80s.

BlackMagic has made incredible products for years so the Digital Cinema Camera is far less risky.

August 2, 2012

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Ben Incahutz

"If you’re wondering where this company came from, they have been designing cameras for space and industrial purposes for a while, "

I feel confident they have the know-how to make a quality product. Whether they will at that price range, however, remains to be seen when the production model comes out.

August 9, 2012

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Jacques E. Bouchard

They have been developing these Digital Cinema Camera for many years now, and have gone through several generations of camera development and have been doing field testing and shooting with people in China that have experience in the film world.

See the note in my post at the bottom about their being at BIRTV 2012 booth 2B222 to talk sales and such with people.

August 11, 2012

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The footage looks good the price even gooder.

August 2, 2012

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"Availability: Soon in China, possibly before the end of the year worldwide".

Makes me want to wait till at least the end of the year before getting a BMC.

August 2, 2012

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I agree. I had set my sights on the BMC as my next cine-style camera, but this is even more attractive. I`ll be watching for the first production models to come out to make up my mind.

August 9, 2012

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Jacques E. Bouchard

The footage will say more than anything on the spec sheet. Look at the results, in the case of the KineRAW-S35 (tm) the results from the CinemaDNG (tm) frames shot with good lenses and processed in my software developed to support the camera are stunning. I'm still working on things, but if you want to see some samples so far you can email me at: tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com with "no film school reader wants TIF frames" in the subject line. I can only send one frame per email reply since they are about 13MB, so may need to send several emails.

August 11, 2012

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There are news that the BMCC will be showing new features and changes at IBC. It's heard to have a super 35 mm...I don't know if full frame...also it's heard it will have a removeble battery. So i don't know but they say that one of this features will be true at IBC, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand again new delay on shippment.

August 21, 2012

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Jesus

Does anyone know the debayered pixel count of the BMC? If it's close to 2K, I don't see the risk in this camera.

August 2, 2012

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Travis Jones

it's a 2.5K Bayer pattern, vs a 2K Bayer pattern that you're recording with this one.
You could debayer that to anything you want.
If you're asking about real world, measured resolution... no idea yet, but it should be better than on this one (which, on the other hand, will have less aliasing issues, as it does an in-camera 2x2 same-color binning)

August 3, 2012

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Right, if the pixel binning is happening at the sensor level, the camera still needs to debayer that binned image.

August 3, 2012

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

I think it doesn't matter if it happens at the sensor level, or at the encoder level: 4 red photosites are binned into one, and that one value is all you'll have when you get home.

August 3, 2012

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Which doesn't mean I dislike the image even a slight bit: I can very happily live with 2K RAW Bayer in 10-bit log space: it may have less real resolution than an EX3, but DR and color depth more than make up for that.

August 3, 2012

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Am I the only one not too impressed with the DR?

August 2, 2012

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Chris H

in the clip, that is... Saying you have wide DR on paper is one thing, useable is another.

August 2, 2012

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Chris H

What is usable depends on the subject matter, the lighting ratio, and the software you use to process the data at least as much as the quality of the raw data, but the data quality is good in the KineRAW-S35 (tm) in part because of the custom designed OLPF filter and the binning reduces the noise by summing pixels before recording.

August 11, 2012

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Well it's graded so how do you know what was there or not?

August 3, 2012

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Alex

You should not judge an uncompressed camera from the results on VIMEO, its very hard to get around the compression artifact issues. I have been helping them with some sample processing for their going to the BIRTV 2011 booth 2B222 to show, but the MPEG4v2 version of my uncompressed AVI are just a mess, so we are converting the uncompressed AVI to Cineform YUV format so it will play on their MAC at the trade show.

Its best to watch DPX files playback uncompressed or use an uncompressed AVI, not some degraded VIMEO video to make any kind of assessment.

Also the people making that demo video may not have experience with converting the Cineform (tm) footage or using the zebras in the camera, when outdoors the LCD can be hard to see so you have to keep the live waveform display in sight and adjust the grading to avoid clipping some of the highlights, also if you are viewing on a LCD monitor it may just be your monitor clipping the highlights off, so that is another issue as LCD monitors do not all conform to standard gamma or clip points.

August 11, 2012

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I won't concern myself with this camera until it has been on the market, used, and reviewed for at least 4-6 months. seems nice so far though but I'll wait for the real world users to get their hands on it.

August 2, 2012

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See the note below about their going into sales mode, its been in field testing for some time already, I've been working through various firmware updates as have the testers in China, so its going to be a based on working cameras that have been in use for years during development, this is not their first model they have been sending me raw data for test processing for MANY years now as the develop the camera circuits, its the other brands of camera that are the new comers and have not had a working camera for as many years probably. Kinefinity.com (tm) has even more years experience making astro cameras so knows how to make low noise sensor boards and how to market specialty cameras.

August 11, 2012

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Some interesting stuff from the video (for anyone who can't be bothered watching it):
-- no phantom power from the XLRs!
-- HD-SDI and HDMI ports are designed for monitoring only; they output in 8-bit
-- no internal battery
-- 4kg
-- possible noisy fan that gets noisier in hot environments and quieter in cold environments
-- this is a 2K model; might or might not be upgrade plan from 2K to 4K for people who buy this model
-- 800 is base ISO
-- includes focus assist
-- lots of onscreen info for monitoring, including waveform and histogram
-- available end of August in China
-- if you're overseas, and it breaks, you have to send it back to China

August 2, 2012

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I like you :)

August 3, 2012

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Can't help but feel that people are shittin' on this camera just because it's made in China. I mean, they have a working prototype and it was used by Dan Chung and they are letting you play with the files from the camera, has anyone used the BMC camera files yet? If you ask me this looks like a far much better contender to alot of people's savings.

August 2, 2012

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For what it's worth, I'm personally more excited about this camera than the BMC and think it's a better image-making box. In a production environment, the BMC has the advantage of slightly higher dynamic range, but that might be about it. Spec sheet says 2.5K from BMC, but the 4K to 2K on the Kineraw camera seems to produce a sharper result to my eyes.

August 2, 2012

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You need to see the uncompressed results shot with good lenses from the CinemaDNG frames. The Cineform (tm) cam look good also, but there are some limitations using the Cineform (tm) codec controls, with the actual raw data you can make fine adjustments to compensate for the lens f/ stop used and such to optimize the resolution, like in my free de-Bayer program. The results of a raw camera vary depending on the software used to process the information in the raw files, so its a matter of skill and experience to get everything you can out of the data, I'm still learning how to shoot and process to capture and maximize the tonal range, and its very hard to show how beautiful the results can be unless you have a 2K CRT monitor and look at the uncompressed TIF frames 1:1 pixel. You cannot judge anything from Vimeo or other compressed images using H.264 type compression, even the KineRAW-S8p (tm) exceeds what you can get to work in a MPEG4v2 version compressed at 6000Kbps. That is why I have been sending out uncompressed BMP frames so people can see what the movie version would look like off a 35mm film print taken direct from the uncompressed DI.

August 11, 2012

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It's primarily due to the obvious track record. Some people have associated China with cheap knock-offs - the same mentality that was applied to Japan 30-40 years ago.
Truth is, while there are still a lot of knock-offs, they've upped their game significantly.
For example, I recently got a Tilta HDSLR Shoulder rig which I adapted for the Scarlet, and I am thoroughly impressed with pretty much every aspect of it. It's robust, solid, practical and infinitely more accessible than much higher priced products from Zacuto or certain other UK manufacturers.
Yet when I mention it, it's shunned and criticized as being a cheap knock-off.
But wtv, my camera looks like a pissed off Decepticon so yea :)

August 2, 2012

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Its not a knock off of anything, circuit discussion with KineRAW (tm) cameras were under development before around the time RED ONE (tm) became popular and much before the ALEXA (tm) camera, I have been talking with them about this for like 5 years now, its a long term commitment they are making and have made so far.

August 11, 2012

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Also let's not forget the differerence in the crop factor of this one and BMC. BMC will kill all establishing shots unless you are in a wide open setting.

August 8, 2012

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Amir S.

At DCP size 2048x1080 the KineRAW-S35 (tm) gives great wide angles with the Angenieux 14.5mm I converted from EYEMO with the sub-PL mount on the camera you can swap many kinds of lens adapters on and off just like changing lenses but it has the advantage that you can align the FFD of the adapter then leave it on the lens so you can use older high quality lenses you may already have if you own a Konvas or Mitchell or even an Eyemo etc. As well as Arri (tm) standard mount lenses and PL etc. Because the sub-PL mount is set back you don't have the lens in a hole problem like some other cameras might, the adapter holds the lens out past the sub-PL mounting lock ring. I have made adapters for Eyemo, Mitchell NC, B&H 2709, OCT-19 and am using a M42 adapter in the Canon DSLR mount adapter to use SLR lenses.

August 11, 2012

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People need to flip their favourite electronic equipment over and look at the "Made in China" stickers.

My Chinese batteries last longer than the factory Canon batteries, and cost 1/10th of the price. :-)

August 9, 2012

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Jacques E. Bouchard

Great time to be a filmmaker.

At 14:30 it looks like the number next to the ISO button is set to 640. That suggests that the bottom range isn't 800, which seems more likely to me. Shooting in day light with a camera that only went down to 800 would seem impractical to me.

August 2, 2012

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Colin

It probably can go lower but I the spokesperson said 800 was the base - meaning you might sacrifice some dynamic range by going lower.

August 2, 2012

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Maybe. I'm trying to think of an instance where a lower ISO has resulted in less dynamic range and can't. Most of my experience is with stills, so maybe that's why I'm not coming up with an example, but still: I think of issues as resulting from a sensor being taxed, not under-utilized.

August 2, 2012

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Colin

Most of the still camera sensors are based around 100 or 200, so you'd lose dynamic range as you raised the ISO (which is true if you take a look at charts showing dynamic range for stills cameras), whereas more of the digital cinema cameras are based around 800 (meaning the lowest noise for the greatest dynamic range).

For example, this is the reason why a camera like the C300 has a locked C-Log mode where the ISO can't change. It's telling you that at ISO 800, that's the most dynamic range you're going to get out of the sensor for the least amount of noise. Certain sensors are designed a little better and can hold more dynamic range throughout the ISO range, but the way that different ISO numbers are actually achieved means that something has to happen to the signal, and it's not always good.

August 2, 2012

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

August 2, 2012

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Colin

Joe, it does seem like approx 800 ISO is new base rate for most of the newer large cameras: Sony F3, Canon C300, Arri Alexa, etc. Besides noise threshold, most of these cameras have the most "balanced" dynamic range at this ISO. RED cameras have a base rate of 320 ISO, but a more balanced dynamic range at ISO 800. Even at their most balanced, most digital cameras inherently have more dynamic range below middle gray (shadow detail) than above (highlight detail). In most cases, the total dynamic range of the sensor remains the same - even when the ISO is changed. What happens is the full dynamic range shifts up or down the scale. Interestingly, when ISO is increased, there is more highlight detail, but less shadow detail. This can be a pain when shooting day exteriors because more ND filters may be needed. The opposite is true if ISO is lowered. You get more shadow detail, but of course lose light sensitivity - which means you may need more lighting footcandles.

August 3, 2012

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Alexa and RED have a base ISO of 800 =)

August 2, 2012

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Michael Soomon

I would not get worked up about numbers like 640 or 800, its a raw recording camera you can shoot with the 160 monitoring table (variable head room type) and the subject can be in shadows down at what would require ISO 2560 and grade the shadows up without loosing the highlights if you have the right grading tools, its not like an H.264 camera where you get block artifacts to deal with if you grade things up too much, with the KineRAW-S35 (tm) you have a full 12bits of sensor data recorded '100%' to the SSD to use in post production so its another cup of tea.

August 11, 2012

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I wonder how much intellectual property rights they broke to build this?

August 2, 2012

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moebius22

Well in all fairness they aren't a knockoff company, they've been building cameras, just not for cinema use. They have to license Cineform, so that's a good sign that they are doing this the right way.

August 2, 2012

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Are you really that ignorant? Do you really think that EVERYTHING from China is a copy and that they cannot make actual products themselves?

August 2, 2012

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john jeffreys

I was being sarcastic. I'm sure it probably works. It's initial quality on the other hand may be dodgy.

August 2, 2012

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moebius22

What makes you think that?

August 2, 2012

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john jeffreys

China has been absorbing the best manufacturing practices around the world at a time, and I believe that there are companies responsible for creating their own products as well, the film market, we movcam, which makes excellent products, such as the beautiful and useful cage for Sony F3. Honestly, the first impression I got to see the Cage to the Redrock Micro was C300 "Chinese copy creation."

August 3, 2012

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I'm very interested in this camera

August 2, 2012

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Lots of kneejerk stuff up there. Nice shout out for Tilta - their stuff is very good.

We had a lot less out of RED when they started. I'm personally very excited about this camera, and would be willing to risk $6 on it for S35 RAW. I'm certain there are probably compromises, but that footage looked very good to me. I didn't have a problem with the DR - skies in Asia always come up that white :-)

Look forward to seeing more. Great times.

August 2, 2012

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marklondon

Why do my fellow Americans always have to display ignorance on public forums? Almost every bit of electronic appliance or computers u own are machined in China! Wealthy Americans cant be that dumb and make all that money outsourcing manufacturing to China. China has the ability to manufacture high quality produce and have been doing just that forever, so why do you think that the build quality of this camera would be substandard just because its "Made in China". No disrespect to the lesser cities but I think thats where most of the ignorant Americans reside, cities with less culturally diverse population. I mean, a camera isnt out yet and people are knocking it because its made in China! So glad I grew up in NY

August 2, 2012

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THADON

just to add to my post, the poor quality products in china and knock offs are typically an arrangement between 3rd world countries and chinese manufacturers to manufacture products for cheap so that these 3rd word countries could afford to pay $30 for a touchscreen phone that does the same texting and calling functions as the $500 iphone we buy here in the states

August 3, 2012

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THADON

Only Americans indulge in such self hatred.

Foreign companies set up shop in China to do their production. Quality control issues often take some time to be sorted out in those arrangements. The Chinese have shown a talent for backwards engineering and such, but they still have initial problems building homegrown tech, such as jet engines for example.

August 3, 2012

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moebius22

They have just launch a space mission to the ISS..MANNED. Everything was homegrown.

August 3, 2012

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quobetah

The iPhone is actually manufactured in China. Check the back of the phone.

August 5, 2012

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monte casey

We "accessorize" our products, we being the manufacturers in the US, and then we can stamp it as Made in the US. China makes our ties and when we sew the tie holder in the back of the tie, we claim it as made in the US.

August 8, 2012

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Amir S.

I love the quality of this footage. Reminds me of 35mm movies from the 80's - the kind of movies I grew up on. This should be a nice a tool and a good price for creative filmmakers.

August 3, 2012

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I agree, for some reason the image style really grabs me. Though, as a vimeo commenter noted there is some flicker in a section or two. Could be some kind of artifact from various digital transformations though in post.

August 3, 2012

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Looks great to me, though the lack of phantom power could be a pain in the arse if you're running and gunning. But for standard narrative shooting no big deal. Sending back to China for repairs would be a hell of an issue, though, especially since this is their first cinema cam and things are bound to screw up. Also, what do we know about rolling shutter skew? Will it be an issue for handheld or are they controlling it?

August 3, 2012

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Handheld with longer lenses, I should say.

August 3, 2012

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The spokesperson was saying they would likely try to partner with people around the world so that you wouldn't have to send the camera back to China. Rolling shutter looked great when it was tested in the video.

August 3, 2012

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

I wouldn't t want to use a large-sensor camera for run-and-gun application, I still have my 3-CCD workhorse for that. As for phantom power, I've never had to use it. As you said, for cine shoots, you have a sound guy with his own geaqr anyway.

August 9, 2012

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Jacques E. Bouchard

Made in China, itself is a deterrent. Unless the more important parts (lenses, sensor etc ) are made in Japan. Cause, thanks to Wallmart and family, everything in the world, is made in China. People in the US or Europe, hardly manufacture anything. They just design stuff.

August 3, 2012

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Ron Fenwick

And soon China will just design stuff too and some other country will do all of the hard labour in poor conditions.

August 3, 2012

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Jason

Every bit of footage I have seen from this camera so far really impresses me. I also like that there is a button for each function on the camera making it more like the Alexa than a touchscreen based Red. The fact they added Cineform to the camera is great news for indies as you can get really great results with that codec and not spend a fortune on drive space. Gonna hold my breath until reviews come out but if they reviews are positive then I would shoot a feature on this in a heartbeat.

August 3, 2012

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Like Honda or Toyota did for the auto industry, this camera will be in a year or two, one of the best on the market in the film industry...
Chinese products are always weird in the beginning but they get better quick..

August 3, 2012

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Black dynamite

Hear, hear

August 8, 2012

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Amir S.

It's because the Chinese, being shorter, stand closer to the work bench and do high-precision work. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96iJsdGkl44

August 9, 2012

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Jacques E. Bouchard

The footage looks very good. The CinemaDNG recording is 12bit which means that the EI ISO you can get and still have 8 bits under 90% white is about 1280, but with analog gain applied you can get similar headroom up to 5120 or more. The top is about 81920 maybe with grain showing at full res but that might be usable for SD documentary, its almost like night-vision with a T/1.3 lens.

I have been shooting most of my tests with a EI ISO 160 monitoring table then underexposing as needed down to maybe EI ISO 500 to 800 or so, I pull the shadows up quite a bit and the shadow noise is low enough that you can do that so the shadow part might be pulled up 3 stops when shooting with the highlights at about 160 curve.

Sorry I have not posted the samples on Vimeo yet, I'm working on my #I1 video at 2048x1080 that will need to be reduced and or cropped to 1920x1080 for Vimeo. The KineRAW-S35 (tm) shoots 2048x1080 for direct 1:1 pixel use in Digital Movie Theaters DCP that are 2048x858 for 2.39:1 and 1998x1080 for 1.85:1 aspect ratio (those are the DCP standards your local movie theater should be using). So you do not need to resize the images and can get full life like results without any re-sample blur that way.

The data is Bayer 2K but the sensor is 4K and there is a custom designed OLPF filter to avoid aliasing problems with the binning, the binning improves the S/N ratio and gives the camera high quality data for both Cineform (tm) and CinemaDNG (tm) recordings.

I am using the record BOTH mode for my tests and calibrations, it can record Cineform (tm) for long takes, or it can record CinemaDNG (tm) for full uncompressed quality, or it can record BOTH at the same time to give you the Cineform (tm) for quick shot review and proxy editing (or finish as Cineform (tm) is a high quality wavelet compression like RED (tm)'s REDCODE (tm)) and you can archive the CinemaDNG (tm) to do a full uncompressed DI with for maximum quality without the need for an external recorder as the camera has two built in 2.5" SSD slots to record to for both recording formats. You can also insert a 2.5" notebook harddrive in the second slot and dump the SSD to that so you can delete the shots from the SSD in the field and re-use it without needing to pack a notebook computer, that is a great feature that I was using a few days ago, I take a 500GB hard-drive aling with two KineMAG-60 (tm) 60GB SSD, and when the SSD fill up I dump them to the hard-drive and continue shooting. You can have as many or as few SSD as you like that way, and use low cost notebook harddrives to back up your shots. You can also dump the SSD to MORE THAN ONE hard-drive if you want two or three backups before you delete the shots from the SSD. The frame transfer goes through the camera high speed internal data path so the dump time is maybe faster than using a notebook computer that way.

I have sample uncompressed TIF frames if you would like to see some, that were processed in my free de-Bayer program that I am developing to support CinemaDNG shooting cameras, you can email a request with "No film reader wants S35 frames" in the subject line to tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com

I can only send one frame per email since they are about 13mb maybe, so it will take several emails to send you some examples. The results in other cameras will look different.

As for the examples not looking "high dynamic range" that is more of an issue in the grading that Kinefinity.com (sm) partners are doing and issues with full range vs. ITU 601 limits of 64/1023 and 940/1023 and problems with LCD monitors clipping off the highlights. I have a high quality CRT monitor and viewing the full range images uncompressed they look very good. Viewing the same image on a LCD monitor is much more of a problem since LCD monitors do not have standard gamma and clip both ends of the scale perhaps to 16/255 and 235/255. If one makes the files sub-range, then the can look flat and washed out on monitors that do not clip as much, so its good to grade the raw camera files on your own software to see what the CAN look like. Don't judge the high quality results of an uncompressed 12bit CinemaDNG camera from some over double or tipple compressed Vimeo video, its just not going to tell you what the transfer to 35mm print stock or DCP is going to look like.

August 3, 2012

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Thanks for this post Dan.

August 9, 2012

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Jacques E. Bouchard

Just played with some of the CineRaw demo material in FirstLight.

Jeeeeeesus Christ!

I buy that camera right of the bat, as soon it is available.

Frank

August 3, 2012

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Frank Glencairn

That's what my Brother says each time I show him one of the new grades I have been working on, I have a big backlog of footage to go through, but even looking at the Cineform (tm) on his 2K monitor its unlike any other camera's footage I have seen, ARRI (tm) or RED (tm). Its not a pixel counting contest, its more about the image smoothness due to the way the camera optimizes the ADC range to cut histogram gaps and other things they are doing internally that I should not talk about. Just the fact that it can record BOTH wavelet compressed and 100% uncompressed at full DCP resolution at the same time is a major accomplishment that no other camera I know of in field testing can do(?).

August 3, 2012

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Just got word about the booth number where history will be made:

BIRTV2012, Aug 22nd~25th, KineRAW-S35 (tm) is at booth number is 2B222

Get your priceline worked out...

August 3, 2012

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it looks like an Alexa with Red options. Low cost cinema camera might come from China, but let us see it in action first!

August 6, 2012

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I agree...KineRAW and Black Magic are both uncompressed RAW.
They should only be compared to Alexa RAW.

So why in Hell is the title of this article compare the camera to a F3..??? Very Weird.

August 8, 2012

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sammy

The way the data is prepped internal though is somewhat unique in some respects and optimized for fewer histogram gaps, as more development is done, it should be come evident that the KineRAW-S35 (tm) has advantages in image quality and smoothness of tonal range.

August 11, 2012

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Is that the change everybody is waiting for?

August 6, 2012

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Mike

This is not in competition with BMC. BMC, as far as I'm concerned, ruined the crop factor for me to consider it. They say almost 4/3... Not 4/3 and by their specs, it is not a 4/3 camera. I would put money on a double the price tag BMC if it was super35. An Establishing shot is a very important storytelling tool for me and there are many times a sacrifice to go with the BMC. I only have a canon dslr with ef lenses that i would not trade for the world, so to go to dslr for those shots it is not always an option. It produces subpar images when there is moire involved. This and the FS 700 are in my price range so i have to figure out which one...

August 8, 2012

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Amir S.

I don't believe BMC's crop is much different than shooting 16mm, which is what I shot my first shorts on.

And according to AbelCine's FOV calculator (http://www.abelcine.com/fov/) it's actually slightly wider than 16mm.

August 9, 2012

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The FS700 with its AVCHD 4:2:0 codec is a joke. That camera should be so much more at that price range. I'd buy the BCC instead based on codec and bitrate alone.

But this new camera is going to make me wait a little longer.

August 9, 2012

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Jacques E. Bouchard

I've been using LOMO 35mm move camera lenses with great results so far, as well as EYEMO lenses like the 14.5mm Angenieux f/3.5 T/3.8. They seem to cover without issues and give sharp results. I even shot with a B&L f/1.1 T/1.3 50mm on some night shots and got nice results although the DOF at f/1.1 is thin.

August 11, 2012

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Patience surpasses learning, folks. I'd rather wait for the market to consolidate, because of all the upcoming players (KineRAW, Bolex, BlackMagic) not all will survive the new competition and probably not all of them will offer well-made products. I would like to hear some people from the business commenting on whether it is possible to get a 4K Super 35mm sensor with good quality already in a finished product recording RAW for 4800€. Cheap Chinese labour can hardly be the clue here, as fast image sensors (avoiding rolling shutter, for example) are just damn expensive to produce and become even more damn expensive the bigger they get. And you need to have the computational power for processing 2K RAW data plus a stable soft- and hardware that guarantees years of usage etc.. As much as I wish we lived in a world where a functioning 2K-Raw-Camera for 4800€ is possible, I very much doubt such a thing will exist in the near future. There has to be a rub in it.

August 9, 2012

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Matt N.

2K RAW is easy, 4K RAW is not, they are binning pixels right off the sensor, so that's their secret. It's actually easier getting a camera to record RAW than it is to record very highly compressed video like H.264.

August 9, 2012

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avatar
Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

RAW recording is not so easy, because the bandwidth is high, in the KineRAW-S8p (tm) it can range up to 107MB/s or maybe a bit more.

The KineRAW-S35 (tm) can record BOTH Cineform (tm) compressed AND CinemaDNG (tm) True RAW at the same time! So that is a lot of power in a small box, no external recorder required.

August 11, 2012

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I have a working KineRAW-S35 (tm) here in San Francisco and am using it to shoot with. The results are very good from the CinemaDNG (tm) processed in my free de-Bayer program I am developing meta-data support for from the KineRAW (tm) camera's DNG frames.

The Cineform (tm) results are also good, but you need to use the Cineform (tm) codec, whereas with the CinemaDNG (tm) you have direct access to the data so you can do what you want with it.

As far as work-flow its better to bin down the 4K data to 2K for many uses, although they may come out with a 4K model the added file copy and processing time, vs. the slight visible improvement in the movie theater make the 2K model maybe a better choice for lower budget films were the slight image improvement from 4K recording and processing would be only visible maybe in a short through digital theater. Keep in mind that DCP made for most movies are ONLY 2K, and the KineRAW-S35 (tm) shoots 2048x1080 full DCP size, so you can output uncompressed 1:1 pixel graded frames for use in making the DCP and that all uncompressed DI is a source if image improvement over shooting with a 4K compressed camera and doing repeated compression during the post production.

2K uncompressed vs. 4K compressed is an interesting thing to consider when you see the movie in the movie theater from a 2K DCP or 2K film-out to 35mm print.

August 11, 2012

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Hi!

I need a converter RAW to TIFF and a link for RAW Files or MOV, but englisch. Thank you!
Roman

August 10, 2012

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My free program DANCINEC.EXE (tm) converts RAW and DNG to TIFF 48bpp, DPX 48bpp and 30bpp, CIN 30bpp, BMP 24bpp and BMP 8bpp all 100% uncompressed.

The RAW and DNG supported currently are 8bit, 12bit (two pixels packed in three bytes, like KineRAW (tm) and Acam dII (tm)) and 16bit one pixel per word.

Which camera do you need a de-Bayer program for?

DANCINEC.EXE (tm) is on my web site for download, I need to finish some things in v0.07 before I post it for "beta-testing".

You can also try XNVIEW (tm) but is says its only 8 bit internal, and also DCRAW (tm) or IRFANVIEW (tm) those will also convert DNG to TIFF. Adobe (tm) has a free program called DNG_validate.exe that will convert DNG to TIF as well, and they have a RAW to DNG converter program that is also free. Those are on the Adobe (tm) web site, DNG_validate.exe is in one of the zip files in the DNG developer section as a free download.

I've been processing some test footage shot at about EI ISO 1280 tonight and I can de-noise and sharpen that well so far, footage up to 5120 looks usable, at about 10240 there is some noise that might be harder to hide at full 2K size but they are still working on the firmware. Because there is so much shadow detail you can shoot at lower EI ISO and then just pull up the shadows as needed, that generally works better than underexposing the whole frame.

August 11, 2012

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Kinefinity.com (sm) have booth 2B222 at BIRTV 2012,

http://www.birtv.com/en/Eindex.aspx/

Quote: [The Must-Attend Industry Exhibition in Asia

BIRTV is China's most prestigious exhibition in the industry of radio,film and TV and a key part of China International Radio Film & Television Exposition.It is also the only one of such exhibitions which gains support from China government and is listed number one among the supported exhibitions in China's 12th Five Year's Developing Plan of Culture.]

They are also revising their web site now, the new web site will have sample images and footage you can download for compatibility testing with your own work-flow.

Here is a map showing the booth location,

http://www.birtv.com/upfiles/201208/2B0801.pdf

They will maybe have two KineRAW-S35 (tm) bodies there to show and be able to answer questions in person. If you are interested in getting one they will be there to talk about that as well. The price for the body may be about USD $6000, they are still working out the details.

====

I have attached some half size JPG taken from the 2048x1080 2K CinemaDNG True RAW sensor data frames the camera records on its internal (inserted) high speed SSD. If you would like to see some full size 2K TIF frames you can email me at: tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com with "DVforums reader wants TIE frames" in the email subject line, the TIF are large so I can only email one per email.

August 11, 2012

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I forgot to edit that last part, to see the attachments you need to go to DVforums and sign in there, and you should change the email subject line to read "no film school reader wants TIF frames"...

August 12, 2012

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flicker is some post processing issues as noted by the guy who posted the video

August 13, 2012

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Mike

I got time to convert the KineRAW-S35 ™ 2048x1080 version of the video Alvin Somwaru helped shoot in Golden Gate Park into Letter-boxed MPEG4 1920x1080 for posting on Vimeo,

"KineRAW-S35 (tm) I1 2K boxed 1920x1080 full range (grade a1) "Daisies and Windmills" on Vimeo"

http://vimeo.com/49064745

I used TEncoder ™ set to 12000 kbps and two pass compression for the conversion from the graded uncompressed AVI but there are still some compression artifacts that show up here and there, anyone have suggestions for a better free, or maybe not free, encoder for making H.264 video files that Vimeo will accept?

I was using just the MPEG4v2 option in VirtualDUB ™ but that is one pass and shows much worse compression artifacts. If you see the video as looking too light and washed out on your MAC notebook let me know about that, I may try to post another copy graded darker. It seems there is a bug in Quicktime ™ where it shows videos too light and washed out looking, under Media Player ™ on my Brother's PC with the CRT monitor set to 1920 resolution it looks OK as far as brightness. Viewing on a LCD or HD monitor it may look like the highlights are burned out and the shadows too dark since I encoded it full range for PC viewing.

If you follow the link for Alvin Somwaru from my Vimeo page for the video above, you can see some more footage on his Vimeo page he processed from Cineform ™ clips shot in the KineRAW-S35 ™ that I have not had time to grade and letterbox yet for posting on my Vimeo page...

September 8, 2012

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Got word from Kinefinity.com (sm) that they will be going to NAB 2013 in Las Vegas (in April),

http://www.nabshow.com/

Quote: [Our booth number in this coming NAB is C12813.]

So if you have wanted some 'hands on' time with their cameras, this will be the first time they are showing them outside China as far as I know.

I've been shooting some additional test footage with both the KineRAW-S35 (tm) and the prototype KineRAW-S8p (tm) and may post that on my Vimeo page when I get it edited together. They are working on a demo reel for showing at NAB 2013, so if you have any suggestions of shots you would like to see you can email them and ask them to have one of their field testers shoot something like what you would like to see maybe so that when you go to NAB 2013 you can see how it turned out. They said they will have cameras there you can look over, and maybe the KineRAW-S35-mini (tm) they are still working on, its a smaller version with the same high quality 100% true RAW DNG recording and S35 sensor with sub-PL mount for using a wide range of movie and still lenses, as I understand it, you can email them for detailed specs if you are interested.

Also the MSRP and shipping should be lower for the KineRAW-S35-mini (tm). So jot down booth C12813 if your going to NAB this year and say high, they have been developing these cameras for many years, and the larger KineRAW-S35 (tm) has been in field testing in China (in addition to the one I got to do calibrations in the monitoring with). They said they are very busy putting cameras together to ship out, so, so far things seem to be going well for them.

February 1, 2013

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Wow, that is some horrible "color."

March 13, 2013

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What Haveyou

25fps also please.. Will sell a lot more to PAL countries like your close neighbours Australia! (-:

August 12, 2013

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Tim Masters