August 22, 2014

Save $10K on RED EPIC-M DRAGON & $3K on RED SCARLET MX (Limited Supply)

[Update: Looks like all of the cameras they had are completely gone now.] Once every blue moon, RED puts a truckload of lightly used cameras on sale, giving customers a chance to snag one at a highly reduced price. Well, No Film Schoolers, right now just so happens to be one of those times, as Jarred Land posted on his Facebook page that RED just received a few varieties of their cameras back, each with less than 5 hours of total use, and that those cameras are now available first come, first serve at a reduced price (and the deal will not be on their website).

Save Huge on Battle Tested SCARLET and DRAGON

Jarred has updated since posting this almost 24 hours ago, and has said the SCARLET DRAGONs are now gone, so it's just SCARLET MX and DRAGON M (all of these include the side SSD and Canon mount):

We finally got back the truckload of Epic Dragons and Scarlet MXs from the military thing... Selling them off as "Battle Tested".. less than 5 hours of use on each camera. All checked out as new and comes with battle-tested Warranty. Dragon M-s $21,500, Scarlet Dragons $11,500 ( only a few left ) , and Scarlet MXs $7100 includes side SSD and Canon mount. First come, first serve like last time... This deal wont appear on our website.. you need to email orders@red.com or email/call your RED rep.

If you've been thinking about pulling the trigger on a RED camera, but were just waiting for a sign of some sort, there is no better time than now pick one up at a reduced price. For the rest of us, I guess we'll just have to wait until the next truckload.

Link: Jarred Land - Facebook

[via Cinescopophilia]

Your Comment

81 Comments

Oh, RED...

August 22, 2014 at 7:56PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Natt

I am waiting for the price on that new 200 MP Hasselblad to come down ...

August 22, 2014 at 8:23PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

1
Reply
DLD

I'm sorry but RED lost my interest a couple years ago... too overpriced for my tastes

August 22, 2014 at 9:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Chris

+1 Red's are for douche music video directors who want to look like somebody important on the set of a music video.

Also top Music executives who know do not know the first thing about Dynamic range demand Red's because they were told that it is the best, dont belive me ask an established music video DP.

Reds are not sh!t camera's by a long shot but other than high frame rates per second on the epic, there is simply no reason to justify the price associated with Reds from workflow, add'ons , and brain camera costs, especially when there are cameras for less than a 1/4 the price that can do just as good

August 22, 2014 at 11:12PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

2
Reply
Cjay

RED overpriced? $11,500 for a Scarlet Dragon, are you kidding me, that is a deal of a life time. I don't see anyone complaining about Arri costing $60,000, forget the F65. Chris apparently you do not understand dynamic range, how many cameras have more dynamic range than the Dragon? You are insane, you guys are going to whine and complain till cameras are given away for free.

August 23, 2014 at 12:24AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Peter

I agree with Peter, the previous two comments of hate ... Haha who are you?! You have no idea. Douche directors? I suppose the girl with the dragon tattoo was made by a douche cause it was shot on red hey

August 23, 2014 at 1:20AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

15
Reply
Tony

The original version shot on film at one tenth of the budget looked so much better than the former music video director's over-hyped and souless production. "Social Network" looked pretty bad, too. The emporer has no clothes but people don't say anything because his cloak is Red.

August 23, 2014 at 1:39PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

6
Reply
Indiana Ford

Man, I hope to make a movie that looks as awful as The Social Network. If you're making stuff that puts that flick to shame I'd love to see your reel...

August 23, 2014 at 9:21PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply

+1

August 27, 2014 at 3:17PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Ian

Pretty sure Fincher's not a douche bag music video director.

August 23, 2014 at 4:30AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

6
Reply
Rob

He used to be though, no?;)

August 23, 2014 at 6:25AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

5
Reply
RobW

Pretty sure Fincher’s not a douche bag music video director.

August 23, 2014 at 1:34PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

16
Reply
Indiana Ford

August 23, 2014 at 5:34PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Rob

+1 - love a good RED bashing....
I remember back in the old days it used to be arri vs panavision and kodak vs fuji....

August 23, 2014 at 6:48AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
RobW

My favourite Red-bashing board:

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/forum/34-cameras-love-them-hate-them/

(Sound guys are grumpy!)

August 23, 2014 at 1:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Indiana Ford

Who are you to call music video directors douches that want to look important on set? You clearly are not in the industry and have no clue what your talking about. Directors use them on all types of projects whether it be a music video, a commercial or a feature film. They are used by some of the best and brightest in the industry and that goes for DP's too. And if you knew anything about anything you would know that it is pretty cheap to rent a RED camera for a music video. And about looking important on set? How about they are used because they are great cameras with superb imagery and massive dynamic range. I have question for you, what would recommend music videos be shot on? Plead enlighten me because you seem to be a know it all moron who must know it all about everything.

August 23, 2014 at 8:04AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

17
Reply
Mike

And why would you say the RED workflow is expensive? I'm pretty sure all I need is an NLE that can support 4k and I'm doing just fine. I edit in Premiere and have no issues editing with R3D files. And there isn't a camera out there that costs 1/4 of the price of the a RED that does the same image wise so stop talking like you know anything about cameras. You are clearly either a young kid or an industry outsider looking in and wishing you could play with a RED on set. Get a clue man, get a clue.

August 23, 2014 at 8:13AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Mike

FWIW, Sony FS700 + Convergent Design Odyssey 7Q are also on sale (at the participating dealers, as they say). The full package includes some SSD's and other accessories and runs ~ $14K. With 7Q now recording 4K up to 60P in ProRes, this combo is one of the better buys out there.

August 22, 2014 at 11:22PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
DLD

Why would you pay 14k and still be stuck with an FS700 look. I think the only benefits of this camera are that you can shoot high speed and survive in low light conditions.

August 23, 2014 at 6:10AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

7
Reply
mranderson

Also since none of you seem to know that cameras are rented in real productions, the cost of renting an Epic and the cost of renting an FS700 with a Q7 are bascially the same.

August 23, 2014 at 8:17AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Mike

So you're saying it's only rental companies that should buy camera's. What does real productions mean anyway? Is that some sort of ingested snobby remark about big 200 million movie productions being the only real ones?

August 23, 2014 at 8:49AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

8
Reply
mranderson

I'm saying using expensive cameras isn't as out of reach as people here make it out to be. And by real production company I mean a production company that produces actual content for actual clients as in a music video production company that creates videos for labels whether big or indie, or a commercial production company that produces commercials for actual clients. Not your local wedding production company shooting on 5D's. That is what I mean. I'm not referring to large movie studios at all, there are thousands of small production companies creating content for clients that demand the use of industry standard cameras such as RED or Alexa.

Unless you are a DP working in the industry there is almost no reason to but a camera as expensive as a RED or Alexa. Especially if you are a just a low level videographer working on short films and such..it's just not sensible. So yes rental companies should be the main people buying these cameras and behind them it should be DPs and maybe directors who do enough high end work to afford an expensive RED. Other than that, if your a small town, small time, small budget videographer then stick to cool DSLRs like the GH4. Don't complain about not being able to afford a RED or Alexa because they cost so much money when they are cameras used by big budget projects and Hollywood productions. That's like complaining that you can't afford to shoot on film for your next project.

August 23, 2014 at 9:31AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

16
Reply
Mike

And you say "It's only rental companies that should by cameras?" as if you are referring to cameras as an all encompassing term. When there are so many different levels of camera that you can't do that and actually make a logical argument. There are professional grade cameras (Red, Alexa), prosumer grade cameras (5d, gh4, bmc), and consumer cameras (t3i, etc). If you are a basic consumer, than feel free to complain about the cost of the t3i, if you are a mid level professional shooting weddings, then feel free to complain about the 5d, and finally if you are a working professional then feel free to complain about the cost of Red and Alexa. But guess what, no working professionals are complaining about the cost of the Red or Alexa because the costs are justified. You are just thinking way inside the box on this one.

August 23, 2014 at 9:40AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Mike

So So So weird. I've shot on BMCC, BMPC, C300, C100 ,F3, F5, F55, and FS700 and none of them have the image fidelity and feel of RED, the company does crazy things that do bone customers at times. But the image speaks for itself and can justify a large margin of BS. Its a roller coaster and if you want the same story every day from your camera Red will be a challenge. The above article is a testament to that. All I know is that I can't afford an Alexa, but I can get within a half stop of the highlight performance. Funny how much buzz was around the BMC, when the scarlet dragon can see 7.5 stops up while the BMC can see 5.5 up. and there literally is only a handful of scarlet dragon clips on vimeo. Everyone wanted highlight retention and when its ownable no one cares.

August 23, 2014 at 12:46AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

1
Reply
ryane

"Please don't respond unless you have experience with CANONREDEPIC!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80EqI-VjmLA

August 23, 2014 at 1:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
neil

L.M.F.A.O

August 23, 2014 at 2:29AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Mikael

yes. sooooo funny!

August 23, 2014 at 2:48AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
J

Next to the various technical issues with red and all of the annoying unprofessional behavior (calling their evf "bomb", the pseudo military style, tattooing at conventions, an embarrassing fanboy community they fostered very early on and lots of other stuff which tends to create a rather unpleasing community) - this was the icing on the cake: http://philipbloom.net/2011/12/10/nomoreepic/

August 23, 2014 at 3:00AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

2
Reply
mariano

That's old news Mariano. I'm sorry the naming convention of the EVF makes it technically difficult for you to shoot with. You should stay away from using "Dead Cats" on your mic because someone gave those a stupid name. You should call RED up, maybe they will rename the EVF to "Lexus" for you. Arri has fanboys, do Arri Fanboys make you cry? Because they love Arri? Canon has Fanboys, their cameras must be shit if it has Fanboys.

August 23, 2014 at 3:18AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Peter

Hi fanboy,

Pull out your "bomb" (written in big shiny letters on the device) during customs on a busy airport, at best after a major terror attack happened, maybe somewhere in the paranoid USA, then have fun. Regarding your second point. I never ever came across professional Arri users who showed such a level of stupidity like those from the red crowd. And spare your words, years ago I was on reduser quite often when my enthusiasm for them was still there, but even then a lot of those morons made it hard to read through uncountable pages of nonsense praise. You wanted to know how long one of those small red batteries will last: sift through dozens of pages of "amazing", "awesome" and so on...

Red contributed to big changes in the industry but they also (in my opinion) contributed to the new tradition of premature release of stuff. Black magic possibly learned a bit from them.

August 23, 2014 at 4:37AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
mariano

I've never had trouble with my Bomb EVF at customs and I've taken my RED to a few different countries. That may be the dumbest statement I have vet heard against using RED cameras. Your hating because you are a broke idiot who can't afford to shoot on RED and aren't good enough professionaly to warrant someone giving you a budget that can support using one.

August 23, 2014 at 7:55AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

1
Reply
Mike

That is the most ridicules excuse I've ever heard. Take you PC antics some place else. Haha. bomb EVF is offensive. Jeez

August 23, 2014 at 9:12AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Anthony Marino

I have a hunch that you've never come across an Arri or Red user period (aside from internet forums).

August 23, 2014 at 11:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

5
Reply

Mariano, I think you are reaching a little with the name of the Bomb EVF being a problem at the airport. You are more likely to offend a terrorist than a member of the TSA with that comment. You want to know why you don't hear too many comments from Arri users? It's because there aren't half of many that exist. It's called probability, like the probability that Mariano got kicked off of reduser for his blatant remarks is probably high. Yes there was a lot of fanboy nonsense, but it is mostly gone since Jim stopped posting.

August 23, 2014 at 8:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Peter

My schoeps has a baby ball gag. That's even worse than a dead cat lol.

August 23, 2014 at 10:30AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

7
Reply
alex

Yep, some of those fanboys are real numbnuts. Can I crawl up your .... and hibernate stupidity. A number of posters are also just dumb and willing to be antisocial.

August 28, 2014 at 8:11PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

3
Reply
Tony

The military stuff etc. I agree, it looks like you are selling to consumer enthusiasts, and it does not look normal.

I see there is already a Tony in the conversation, I am a separate Tony.

August 28, 2014 at 8:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

7
Reply
Tony

There's another promotion going on right now - Adorama has GH4 with a Rokinon 12mm T3.1 Cine lens for ... $1,800, I believe.
.
Samyang is said to be releasing a new line of cinema lenses, so the old stock needs to be cleared before the new units arrive.

August 23, 2014 at 5:31AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

3
Reply
DLD

RED is still too expensive there are more affordable options out there to shoot 4K and you would end up getting a better image out of it. Personally I've worked with RED its a cool camera but I would prefer something with better low light capabilities and that dose not sound light an engine of a car when its over heating for a fraction of the price, and for that price you could buy yourself a bunch of grip that will make your image even better such as lighting and stabilizers. I would only touch RED if I need to record 5K or above, but aside from that RED inst worth the price of a car.

August 23, 2014 at 8:38AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply

Hooked on Phonics did not work for you.

August 23, 2014 at 11:26AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply

before the year ends red will come up with an offer by slashing the prices of all the cameras to HALF :)

August 23, 2014 at 9:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

2
Reply

With this deal I scored a Dragon with all of my additional needs (batteries/cards/monitor/etc) for about 35k.
Feeling really good about it. Yes, there are a bunch of other amazing cameras in the market but the RED Epic is pretty damn nice.
And at the end of the day it's all about what you can do and make with the tools you have to use.

August 23, 2014 at 11:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
SoyBueno

And will be for a very long time.

August 23, 2014 at 4:16PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

6
Reply
Anthony Marino

How did you get it if not from online? In person, at RED? Or over the phone? Doesn't seem to say up there.

August 25, 2014 at 4:15AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
JohnnyDecker

For the spec reader nerds up there, I must say, you can compare specs the way you want, but shooting raw, Red is still the smoother option. Great workflow and great file sizes. it's actually pleasant to deal with .r3d files. I have a BMC and Red Scarlet, just by looking at both you can clearly see why one is more expensive than the other.

August 23, 2014 at 12:57PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

3
Reply
Marcus

+1

August 27, 2014 at 7:29PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Ian

I wish RED would look more like film in a way. I prefer RED workflow, gear, everything. But Blackmagic images tend to look more filmic and skin tones are better. I really, really wish RED would go in that direction. I want to jump on the RED bandwagon.

August 23, 2014 at 1:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Jason

They very much addressed this with Dragon. Forget all of the naysayers, the highlight roll off is ridiculous and the colors are much much better than MX. With MX I had to tweak things quite a bit to get colors that I liked, with Dragon I really don't have to do much.

The whole ISO thing is completely blown out of proportion too. It's an ISO800 camera just like MX, just like BMCC, just like everything else.

August 23, 2014 at 1:38PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

2
Reply

That's one bandwagon you were fortunate to miss. With their recent problems over-hyping the Dragon's dynamic range and having to replace the OLPF, I think the party is over except for the faithful fanboys.

Red's dead baby, Red's dead.

August 23, 2014 at 1:45PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

8
Reply
Indiana Ford

I could care less about bandwagons, hype, marketing, and/or fanboys.

Personally, I would rather just use their products because I like the image the most out of any other camera on the market (I have used most them at this point). The only one I am interested in is the 6K KineRaw but there is literally, no information on that camera.

August 23, 2014 at 2:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

5
Reply

Hey Luke, off topic. Which AIS lenses do you recommend as the sharpest. There are quite a few similar focal ranges with different apertures like 35mm 1.4 and f2 etc... Or if most are good, are there any AIS/ AI lenses that I want to stay away from?

Thanks.

August 25, 2014 at 3:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

20
Reply
VinceGortho

Amusingly, the IMDB board for "Expendables 3" is full of fans complaining about the poor quality of the film. One commentator says "this poor excuse for a film (or whatever digital s*** they shot it on)...".

So the general public do seem to notice the substandard image quality of the Red cameras.

August 23, 2014 at 1:42PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Indiana Ford

With the quality of commentators I wouldn't be surprised if they're judging it from the leaked screener copy though...

August 23, 2014 at 3:03PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
dauid

Ha! Great point...

August 23, 2014 at 3:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

11
Reply

I don't know. I think their best days have passed. They deserve credit for shaking things up, but in the long run they turned out to be their own worst enemy.

I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a camera that can't shoot uncompressed RAW. From what I remember 3:1 is the best a Red can do and yes, you will notice it in FX and grading. I've also never been a fan of the Red color science. Way too green and the highlight roll off is harsh. Hope the new software for Dragon helps with that. Can't speak for the Dragon sensor, but there are other surprises with the the MX, like shooting with an IR-ND filter... Fans like a blow dryer? Poor ergonomics, modules that don't ship (meizler module, laser projectors etc). A gear list that sounds like you're putting in an order for a SWAT team? Dragon looks like a big improvement and 14 stops is great, but there are other cameras that offer such range (Alexa, Sony F5/F55/F65). I don't care about 6k. I'm shooting actors with real skin, not test charts and 2.8/4k is more than enough.

I'd get a used Alexa or new Sony F5/F55, instead of an Epic.

I'd skip the Scarlet also. Maybe a Sony F3L instead. It's only HD, but has way more dynamic range and can practically see in the dark.

August 23, 2014 at 1:53PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
meh...

skin tones=kodak

August 24, 2014 at 3:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
DIO

Kodak = obsolete.

August 24, 2014 at 6:40PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

3
Reply
Natt

>Kodak = obsolete

We'll see how readable that LTO tape of yours is in 20 years.

August 24, 2014 at 8:34PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
tic toc

you=out of touch

in Los Angeles Kodak film is used in commercials, t.v. series (Breaking Bad just won a bunch of awards last night)…movies..a small film called Star Wars…Kodak is stunning and thriving in the digital world..

August 26, 2014 at 4:34AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

3
Reply
DIO

not you tic toc
these messages are for Natt…

buy kodak film and start your career today ….(16mm 50d to start with..) you'll never go back to video if you're an artist and want the most beautiful image

August 26, 2014 at 5:25AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

5
Reply
DIO

Sony R5 recorder is 3:1 raw as well

August 25, 2014 at 8:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply

The F5/F55/F65 will all shoot uncompressed RAW to the appropriate recorder (odyssey 7Q. Etc)

August 25, 2014 at 12:33PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Meh

You won't notice it in VFX because VFX takes DPXs, generally either the finishing spec (2k) or 2.5k if they want extra room for stuff. 5k to 2.5k DPX is super sampled. You lose nothing. The only time it sucks is when someone wants you to do VFX 1:1 pixel crop of red footage because it's generally softer 1:1 than other cameras. If you treat Reds as SUPERSAMPLED sensor cameras with the option to un-supersample if you need it, then you generally don't muck up the VFX or grading. Yes the Epic has a litany of issues, but your anecdotal account of 3:1 affecting VFX and the grade is wrong. The 3:1 compression is mathematically/visually lossless. In fact the whole 8:1 to 3:1 ratios are indistinguishable for most. R3Ds are unwieldy, but save Alexas spitting out ProRes4x4 at 1080, any other top level RAW solution is going to be just as unwieldy, but with larger data footprints. ArriRaw 3k 9.4gb a minute, 5k R3d 3.7gb a minute, F65 6k 9gb a minute. If you're running a two camera 20 day shoot that's the difference between having to buy 90TB worth of drives for DIT and backup and 180TB. And having DI store 30TB vs 60TB on their servers charging $$$.

August 25, 2014 at 4:24PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Charles

I bet they will sell these like hot cookies...it is still a great camera...but a sony fs700 equipped with a odyssey 7q gives also amazing price performance...

August 23, 2014 at 2:27PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply

Exactly, so much more actually :

- Better low light performances than the Red

-240 fps in 2K raw 12 bits (the difference between 12 and 16 bits on the big screen is just like pixel peeping, it's not the camera , it's the DP that makes the difference ! If your light is shit, you can have a 20K resolution 24 bits depth sensor, it will still be shit ! I'm seen so many things shot on RED that didn't look cinematic at all because the light and the composition of the frame were so bad)

-120 fps 4 secondes burst in 4K raw 12 bits

- The future possibility to shoot in 4K Prores 4:2:2 10 bits which will be largely enough for 99% of the productions, except for Nolan and Cuaron, which nobody here is I think.

Combined with Zeiss still lenses and a talented DP this camera can serve the best story your imagination could make (because yes, we're here to tell stories, not to compare who has the most expensive camera)

And to finish, if you shoot with a FS700 in 4K raw or in 4K Prores or with an Epic in 4K,5K,or 6K you need a powerful computer...

On Facebook, there's a group named "We'll see in post-production", a french group, a guy cry for help because he decided to shoot professionally with a BMC 4K in raw and he was expecting his poor mid 2011 iMac to do the job which of course it was unable to do, even to open Da Vinci to make proxies.
The guy was late on his deadline, and lost money, just because he wanted to go fancy and "shoot 4K raw because I really need it to make my shitty light look I hope less shitty.

August 24, 2014 at 2:22AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Jonathan

you completely lost me at zeiss stills can serve your imagination. You only need intermediate sequencing for a scene before stills lenses start to impact story. I don't care about 120 or 240, because .5% of stories need it. 60p is fine. The two cameras have very dissimilar looks so the specs don't come into play when choosing between the two only the look and feel. Sony needs to much contrast added for me unless you film for it. And feel free to post some beautiful cinematic fs700. I've only seen one or two examples.

August 24, 2014 at 1:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

9
Reply
ryane

what do you mean by "intermediate sequencing"?

August 24, 2014 at 2:58PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

5
Reply
Andy

By sequencing, I mean choosing your shots for the sequence of the scene. By intermediate, I mean a decent amount of complexity.

August 24, 2014 at 7:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

3
Reply
ryane

I think I'm not the only one here who doesn't understand what you mean by "intermediate sequencing" but anyway, you say "I mean choosing your shot for sequence" and "intermediate, I mean a decent amount of complexity" ....Sorry I don't understand what you mean....You have still shots in some stories that are very simple but well lit, composed, written and acted to had a "decent amount of complexity"...

Anyway, for cinematic images coming from the FS700 feel free to check Philip Bloom, James Miller vimeo channel to see and the vimeo group FS700 to seen tons and tons of well lit footage that are very cinematic...

You said I lost you on Zeiss stills, it's normal, you're not enough experienced to understand that the most important part of a camera is the Lense you put in front.

For example, you can make a long feature fillm with simple Zeiss still lenses, you can't do the same thing with canon lenses, even the L series, there are just not good enough, you loose dynamic range, contrast and have less better skin tones with canon L series than Zeiss Distagon ..

Also, there's not only cinema in life, there's also TV and Adverstising, you would know that if you were a working professional, you get the work to achieve your passion but also to pay your bills and there's nothing wrong by doing TV or Ad's because they pay and they pay well, guess what, in the Ad's world, 99 % of the projects requires Slow-Motion, it's simple, for the past 3 years now, every project I've worked on has slow motion. It's just beautiful anyway.

You talk about the look, like I said, it's not the camera that makes the look, it's the DP and the way he lit the scene.
If your light is shit, even if you shoot on a Red Epic, there's nothing you can do to change that. Period.
So whatever it's a FS700, an Alexa, a Red or a small iPhone, give it to someone talented and you will have a good image, give to someone like you and you will have the worst image possible.

PS : What you mean by sequencing is called a "Shot List", what you mean by "Intermediate sequencing" is ......I don't know, what you said makes absolutely no sense at all man, read yourself please !
"You only need intermediate sequencing for a scene before stills lenses start to impact story"
What does that mean, you meant "You need a complex shot list before stills lenses start to impact story?" Even when translated with your own translation it still makes no sense at all !

I said that your story will be fine with a good DP and Zeiss lenses and that the DP is more important than any camera out there.

Clear enough?...

August 24, 2014 at 9:44PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply
Jonathan

Dumb Dumb, digital cameras are like different film stocks. Film stocks have different looks that are appropriate for different projects. You can't make RED look exactly like Alexa, its impossible because there are different looks. And don't lie, if you were in TV and Ad work you would know the fs700 is not very popular. And I don't hold Philip Bloom in as high regard as many. He's a a good doc guy, not a cinematographer. You lost me at ziess stills glass because no professional DP would prefer zeiss still glass. Zeiss still glass under F4 has magenta chromatic aberration in high contrast that would kill any TV or Ad shoot. Any Zeiss lens under 50mm will have noticeable distortion for close ups. Give me a Cooke S4 18mm, over a Zeiss Ze 35mm for a close up. The 50mm makro breaths awfully. Sharpness wide open is crap across the board. "You have still shots in some stories that are very simple but well lit." Watch a film by a high caliber director and see how you feel about a story full of simple shots. "you’re not enough experienced to understand that the most important part of a camera is the Lense you put in front." If thats what you believe why aren't you advocating Zeiss real cinema glass. there are numerous attributes like color matching, distortion, sharpness, and contrast that make those lenses superior for cinematography.

August 25, 2014 at 12:55AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

10
Reply
ryane

First I was talking about the low end budget, if you don't have money for zeiss cinema glasses the stills are fine and better than the canon.
Second, it´s false to say that they have magenta chromatic abberations,it's totally false.
Third, why in the hell would make a close up with any lenses under 50 mm ? A close up with an 18 mm? There's of course no rules that forbids that, but I don't know any DP who make CU with anything else than a 50 mm or a 85mm.
Fourth Philip Bloom is a great cinematographer and knows his jobs better than you, if you're not convice by him, then check Shane Hulburt opinion on Zeiss Still Lenses (for a low budget film remember, of course if you have the money take the Master Primes) Huburlt is just an ASC cinematographer with 18 features and guess what he prefer Zeis Lenses when all you have is a minimal budget.

Five, I work in TV and Ad, we use all the time slow mo, we shoot with Phantom, F55 and yes FS700 with Angenieux and Arri Zeiss Master Prime glasses. We don't use Red anymore because guess what ? Our insurance company ( as a "pro" you do what it is right ?) forbids us to use it as their cameras are too much unreliable.

August 25, 2014 at 11:51AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

4
Reply
Jonathan

No wonder you didn't understand what I meant about sequencing. In narratives wide angles are used all the time with camera movement turning wides into medium into close ups. Photography lenses weren't made for that. http://timurcivan.com/2011/07/an-examination-of-lenses-carl-zeiss-compac... this is an article on the Mk1's but the CP.2s do the same thing with chromatic aberration. Other problems with Zeiss photo is that the 28mm and 50mm 1.4 are soft. Also Low budget doesn't mean no budget.

Philip Bloom and Shane Hulburt, jesus christ, did you get wooed by a convention booth he was speaking at? Why are all your referenced DPs people who make money of off no budget novices? I would expect those answers from some DIY guy who just picked up a dslr and is using the internet to try to learn, not a pro ad guy who shoots on master primes. Something isn't adding up and you have weird insurance. Stopping speaking camera and hire a DP to do it for you.

August 25, 2014 at 1:16PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

2
Reply
ryan

Who cares what the camera is? Spend more time on finding great crew. People are what make films, not cameras.

August 25, 2014 at 9:26AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

11
Reply
Lauchlan

Ryane,

You are the dumbest person in the entire universe.
The article you put in link just says the same thing as I did, he used 50 mm and 85mm to make close ups, because as you know, almost no one makes close up with short lenses, except if you make an Oner perharps, wich is not the easiest thing to do depending on the shoot.

Otherwise, your article shows the good quality of the entry level of Zeiss CP, and like I said, he wrote that of course the better are the Master Prime.

And no we don't have a weird insurrance, we have a well know insurrance company, it's not my fault if Red Cameras are unreliables.

To finish, if you don't have any respect for people who are making better job than you do, I' m sorry if you are that miserable. You're just a poor hater behind your computer whereas I'm a DP who runs a 5 millions dollars production company.
You did not understand my statement that for entry level, FS700 and Zeiss are a nice combination, now if you want to shoot a short in IMAX please be my guest and throw your money away.

August 25, 2014 at 1:40PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

4
Reply
Jonathan

Ok let me speak in a more rudimentary manner so you don't continue to mix stuff up. The article that I linked illustrated my point that Zeiss Ze and CP.2s have chromatic aberration under 5.6, You said I was lying about that and I wanted to substantiate. Now on a COMPLETELY SEPARATE POINT, I said Zeiss Ze have noticeable distortion, so much on certain lenses, that I would rather use a cooke 18mm. You blew that out of proportion. I don't believe you about the production company, like I said before, things don't add up.

August 25, 2014 at 2:59PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

1
Reply
ryan

And I almost forgot, you're whining about the Zeiss having a magenta pink CA, could also complain about the awful red hue that the canon L series have to be honest once in your life ?

Zeiss are better, period. The magenta pink CA can be resolve either by choosing the right light on set, or in color correction if you're a lame DP whereas the awful red hue of the canon can't be resolve in any way.

Zeiss lenses do breathe that's correct and so what ? It's an esthetic choice, nothing wrong about it just like the fact you decide to use an 18 mm to make close up when every DP will use a 50mm or a 85...

August 25, 2014 at 1:58PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

6
Reply
Jonathan

A lot of you are simply n00bs who bash the red bc you can't have it. Stop it.

August 25, 2014 at 3:37PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

6
Reply
Richard

Agreed. It's usually only people who dont know how to use it that rips it off. I'd like them to go tell that to Ridley Scott and his DP!

August 29, 2014 at 4:46AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

3
Reply

We were able to get in on the 5 hour old Epic Dragons. Coming from C300/100's I'm pretty confident that the quality difference is there. You want to know the funny thing? We've never even seen one up close. We knew a few years back that we wanted to have the ability to produce an image like red does. The only other camera we would even be interested in would be the Alexa. You can just see the difference. I could care less what they call it. You don't see BMCC, C300, C500, 1DC, FS700 making any notable films and for good reason for sure. It took us a couple of years to budget for one and now it's on its way. Exciting times in deed!

August 28, 2014 at 11:23PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

4
Reply
Jamison

Outstanding, discussions, regarding RED EPIC and other Digital cameras, with technical arguments.
Fantastic.

August 30, 2014 at 1:49AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

5
Reply
SAEED RIZVI

Red guys are wacky got to love em. Excellent banter when a red user is involved.hope that same passion goes into your work. I used it for insert shots to match super 16mm feature I directed, when it was called red one before most of you were born.My 1st AD (dga) buddies cringe a little when a red shows up on a commercial shoot . Ask them why. I think you know the answer. Somebody else is paying? Red is fine for me. If I'm paying its Canon.

August 30, 2014 at 4:34AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

0
Reply