How Watching Bad Films Helped Michael Moore's Producers Make Good Movies

Documentary filmmakers Tia Lessin and Carl Deal did not go to film school, but their resumes prove that it's not even remotely necessary. Having worked with director Michael Moore on iconic documentaries such as Bowling for Columbine, Fahrenheit 9/11, and his latest, Where To Invade Next, as well as directing their own films, the producing pair (a couple with a young son) have joined the ranks of the legendary documentarians from whom they learned.

In the mid-90s, someone slipped Lessin a VHS tape of Moore's new reality show, TV Nation. Moore had just made Roger and Me and was given carte blanche by NBC for the show. Lessin was so impressed that she "stalked" — in her words — the production team. She managed to secure a job on the crew; within a year, she was running the show. That was the beginning of what is now a 20+ year relationship with the director. 

No Film School sat down with Lessin and Deal at the Bermuda International Film Festival earlier this week following a screening of Where To Invade Next. We reclined on a pink sand beach. While their son played by the turquoise water, the pair revealed what they think it takes for young, aspiring filmmakers to make their way to the top.

"Working for exceptionally talented producers — that was my film school. There's no substitute for on-the-job training." 

No Film School: Neither of you went to film school. How you did you become involved in directing and producing?

Carl Deal: The common thing is we both had something to say. But we went by different routes. What's that Quentin Tarantino saying? Something like, "Don't go $100,000 in debt for film school, make a bad film and learn how to make movies." You learn by doing it. Something I know of film school is that it's an unfair advantage in favor of the kids with money. 

Lessin: I actually had applied to film school! I studied history in undergrad. But I started taking these massive cameras out and just started documenting what was happening in my community. I applied to film school but I didn't get financial aid so I thought, "oh well!" and I just started working. There was a time in Washington D.C. when AVID first came out, and I learned how to use it and took a class and was able to get a job as an assistant editor. I worked for Charles Guggenheim, who was a very traditional, old-school documentarian. Then I moved to New York with Carl.

Credit: "Bowling for Columbine," dir. Michael Moore

Deal: I went to journalism school in New York at Columbia. Ultimately, I came up through the broadcast journalism world. It really sucks telling a story in two and a half minutes. If you're lucky, you get two and a half minutes. 

Lessin: So while he was doing broadcast journalism for AP and ABC and others, I was doing documentary filmmaking, and he was green-eyed with jealousy. I was working with passionate storytellers and working on fun projects with the masters of documentary. So I brought him over from the dark side into the light to do long-form storytelling. 

Deal: But her film school sort of started on the other side of the camera because she was working in a campaign as a labor organizer on Capital Hill. The BBC sent a film crew to follow her campaign. 

NFS: So you were a subject first?

Lessin: Yeah, although I tried to stay off camera! I was really intrigued with what they were doing and found myself asking them more questions than they were asking me. I became interested in the other side of the camera. 

NFS: So your activism lends itself to the medium, but how do you choose your subjects and the stories you want to tell?

Lessin: Stories that move us, that are powerful. We've had the luck of working for some filmmaking greats. For Michael Moore, what we try to do as producers is to try and help him execute his vision. We sign on early on to serve the stories he wants to tell. As producers, we don't really choose; we sort of sign up to help other people execute what they've chosen. But, you know, we influence for sure because filmmaking is a collaborative art. 

"The story is more important than the politics or the issue."

Deal: The story is more important than the politics or the issue. Everybody cares about a lot of things, but you don't write about everything you care about. It's got to be interesting; it's got to fit the form. We believe that very strongly. There are certain things about making films that are kind of universal that you need to have, no matter what kind of films you're making. That's the adrenaline that you get through the process. That's the thing that you need. You have to get a lot of joy out of doing it. 

Lessin: With the two feature films we've directed — one on Hurricane Katrina and one on the Tea Party — we were just trying to make sense of what we were seeing play out on the national news and wanted a more intimate sense of the drama unfolding. So we came to those subjects with curiosity and using a camera to help us discover what was happening. 

Credit: "Where to Invade Next," dir. Michael Moore

Lessin: It's a very different process. Producing can be very creative, but the first thing you've got to do is raise the money. You've got to finance the project and then figure out how to tell the story. Those are two different parts of your brain and you have to wear many different hats. But they have a lot of the same skill sets.

Deal: As producers, we don't use our voice directly. If we're working with Michael, it's his voice that connects everything. That impacts everything, what you shoot and how you shoot it.  We don't mind being present and we want to be present. We always appear off camera in what we do; we don't try to pretend we're not there. 

NFS: For aspiring producers or directors, perhaps specifically of documentary film, what are some things they should know or expect?

Lessin: I learned the old-fashioned way, you know? I wasn't getting coffee, but I started at the bottom. I was logging tapes and digitizing footage, working late nights. Then I became an archival researcher, then associate producer, then producer, then director. I've done this over the course of 20-odd years. That was my film school: working for exceptionally talented producers. There's no substitute for on-the-job training. I think that what anchored me was getting some really good technical skills. I knew my shit. I find a lot of young people want to direct and they want to produce immediately. God bless them because they have passion, but that always surprises me. I believe in the old-school apprenticeship type of learning. I didn't come in and immediately think I was entitled to get this big wad of cash and spend it to tell a story. I felt like I needed to learn about the craft. There's no job too small where you can't learn something. Make yourself indispensable. Find a producer or director whose work you admire, and figure out a way to serve them. Serve their work. That goes a long way in terms of training your eye and honing your storytelling skills.

"Make yourself indispensable. Find a producer or director whose work you admire, and figure out a way to serve them. That goes a long way in terms of training your eye and honing your storytelling skills."

Deal: There's stuff that you can't learn in books at all. When it comes to producing, it's problem solving, and it's learning to anticipate problems too. It's putting five contingencies in place before everything gets all fucked up. There's all this stuff that's not just intuitive; you've just got to learn by seeing it happen. I think it's great that the technology is there and there are very talented people who can do it all, who can shoot, write, direct, produce and make really cool little films. But I agree with Tia, there's no substitute for learning from people who've been at this for a while. That means you've got to check your ego. It can get in the way. 

Lessin: You can learn by working with someone, but you can also learn a lot just by watching a lot of films. A lot of film school is watching great films and talking about them. And not just great films, but also films that don't work. You can learn a lot from films that actually fail, and seeing why they fail is important. We watch films all the time. We're Academy members so we're fortunate to get a lot of screeners.  I'm always surprised when people are fairly film illiterate. But it's not about watching films to imitate them; it's about watching to learn the history of the genre. There are so many inventive and creative ways to tell stories, there are so many ways that we haven't even thought of yet. Don't get locked in to a certain way.

Deal: The problem with film school is that they teach you how to do stuff and how to don't do stuff. But you should break the rules. Invent new stuff. Kick down the doors and don't be discouraged by what people say isn't a documentary.

NFS: Up-and-coming filmmakers are surely looking for people to collaborate with. You two have found each other, but for filmmakers who aren't also a family, how would you recommend they nurture their collaborative relationships?

Lessin: Just start working with different people and figure out what works. Find the people who have the skills, and possibly the equipment [laughs] and the vision that might complement or supplement what you have. Find what works right. Don't continue to work with someone that drags you down. You know when that gels and when that clicks. It feels really exciting and fun. Don't be shy to approach people whose work you really like and you want to learn more about. And not by saying how can you help me, but by saying how can I help you? What can I do? Is there anything on set I can do for you? 

Deal: The community of independent filmmakers sticks together. Everyone has the same struggles. It tends to be a pretty supportive network. 

Lessin: We know a lot of people who work in different teams with every film they make. But the vast majority of documentary filmmakers are lone rangers. 

"The last thing that you want is for someone to be lukewarm about what you put up on screen. 'Oh, that was nice.' Who wants that?"

NFS: How do you keep your work and your relationship separate?

Lessin: Everyone always asks us, "How do you work together?" But no one ever asks people how they raise a kid together, and I actually think that's far more complicated and challenging. 

Deal: We came to this place together. We don't separate them. We're choosy and we work on things that we care about. So we're going to be talking about it at dinner anyway. 

Lessin: When we get a project, we lose most of our friends for most of the year. [laughs] But we've got each other. 

NFS: Michael's films can get a lot of response, both positive and negative. How do you guys handle the negative?

Lessin: I hope all films get both! The last thing that you want someone to be is lukewarm about what you put up on screen. "Oh, that was nice." Who wants that? It's been a lot of fun to be out there with this film. The audience response has been great. We've never heard so much laughter, or sniffles, or applause. That's what you have to pay attention to. 

Deal: A big part of what Michael is trying to do and what we're trying to help him do is provoke conversations. It doesn't matter what people say about the movie. But you stand by your film and stand by your work. People will like it or not but we know why we did what we did and the choices we made. 

Lessin: Some people think that as citizens of this country, we don't have a right to criticize our government or our social policies, but I think that's an incredibly patriotic act. It's a duty of citizenship.