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November 1, 2012

Jim Jannard and RED Give Hat Tip to Sony, 1080p/2K Still a 'Scam,' Price Reductions Coming Tonight

Jim Jannard, the man with the plan for RED, has said a lot of interesting things on the RED forum over the last few years, mostly about how 4K is the only format we should be aspiring to, and 1080p and 2K is not enough -- even stated by Arri's own material on film scanning to 4K. It's not very often that he gives credit to another product, but that's exactly what he does here. Why does this matter? RED didn't have any competition as far as price was concerned until now, and with a little pressure, we could see some drastic reductions in price. Read on for what Mr. Jannard had to say about Sony.

Here is what he said on REDUser, again putting it all here just in case it ever gets deleted.

I am going to give a tip of the hat to Sony tonight. These two camera announcements are significant.

While I do not see them as a threat to EPIC or Scarlet... I do see them as a threat to the conventional and outdated thinking of the industry that tried so hard to cling to "1080P and 2K are good enough".

We began to champion 4K as the respectful replacement for film in the digital motion world back in 2006. We were embraced. We were ignored. We were revolutionary and we were a scam.

Others in the industry incredibly (and successfully in some circles) attempted to convince the industry that 1080P and 2K was good enough. On one page of Arri's website they extolled the virtues and increased detail of a 4K film scan and then on another sold the Alexa as a feature worthy camera that "had more resolution than other so called 4K cameras". (rolls eyes)

Every single camera manufacturer now has a 4K and/or 5K sensor program in the works. Why? Because 1080P and 2K acquisition was the biggest scam in the history of the film industry.

Sony has come to the party. God love them. The F65 is a true 4K camera (although not 8K as it is advertised). The F5 and F55 are 4K cameras soon to be released.

There are 4K display panels being released. 4K projectors. The world is finally coming to its senses. We predicted this 6 years ago. Now it is here.

What does this mean?

There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) for consumer 4K . It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K.

It means that features and TV shows shot on 1080P or 2K are destined to be left out of a second bite of the apple for a 4K delivery opportunity.

It means that we were right after all. Not that we want to gloat. We are just sad we didn't do a better job of clearly explaining our position to more people over the past 6 years.

In the end... Sony has validated what we have believed in all along. 1080P is not a respectful film replacement and 4K (or more) is. Actually we believe in 5K+ bayer to a 4K finish. But I don't want to nit-pick Sony's announcements.

The image needs to get better over time. There was a moment in history when it got worse. It was called 1080P and 2K acquisition. Mercifully that time has passed. Thanks to Sony for acknowledging this truth.

Did I mention that 4K is 5 times the resolution of 1080P?

As far as the new standard goes, I hadn't remembered reading anywhere about not being able to up-res anything into 4K. There is so much 1080p and 720p (not to mention 480) material out there, I don't see that as a realistic possibility for U.S. broadcasters. There are plenty of standards that are not adhered to in the U.S., and that's probably going to be one of them if, in fact, that is the case and part of the standard is not interpolating anything to 4K.

With that out of the way, this is the first time that Mr. Jannard has admittedly publicly that he's been impressed with a camera system. This is the first time anyone has really come up with a competitive camera against RED not only in price, but in specs, in design, and in functionality. It's clear Sony knows the direction is 4K, but they've also designed a system that takes into account the fact that most people won't be using 4K for a long time for many projects. The thing is, RED has been very specific on not offering other options for recording to any other format, that is, until now with the Meizler Module. People still need 1080p and 2K, regardless of how much of a "scam" they actually are -- and let's not get into how many feature films have been distributed in 4K, because you can count the number on one hand.

So why talk about all of this? It means a lot for the future of the camera industry. RED dropped the RED One MX like a bomb on the rest of the film industry, and it brought real filmmaking quality to a level that many people could actually afford to buy. It also made renting a 4K RAW (and RAW in general) camera realistic for many productons, and it was offering a quality unmatched in the space. RED also introduced an entire workflow with REDCODE RAW that is slowly maturing into a really complete system. We don't know what Sony is going to do about their workflow options, but it's clear they are working on compatibility with manufacturers, but how easily the Sony RAW format will work into people's current workflows is unclear at this point. Certainly everyone doesn't need 4K RAW, but 2K RAW is also an option on these Sony cameras, something RED will likely never enable on their models. 4K is the next frontier, but it's clear that a hybrid approach might make the most sense for a modular camera like those from Sony, especially since those cameras can simultaneously record RAW as well as different formats internally.

The real reason this is important, however, is because RED hasn't felt the heat until now. The Arri Alexa is the go-to camera for mid to high level productions. No one is really using the F65. That means at the mid to low level budgets, you've got some decisions to make. Besides everything that's already out there, you've now got at least the F5 as a possible camera many can afford, with the F55 being a more expensive option that will mostly be a rental. There is one important place RED can theoretically beat the competition, and that's in price. No one is offering a 5K camera that can do 96fps -- or at least at the moment anywhere near where people could actually afford or consider using. I think 5K and high frame rates are going to get a lot more affordable tonight.

RED sees the competition, and with Sony withholding pricing information, they've got a decision to make. Sony basically gave a hat tip to RED by waiting to announce a price until RED does. The people at Sony could have very easily released an MSRP just like they've always done for most announcements and then announced a real price later on. That's standard practice for Sony and Canon and many others. That's not what happened here. There is nothing else going to be released in the near future besides what RED might do, and what they're considering price-wise. That's a clear indication that they are listening in Japan and they know who their real competition is.

RED will be announcing price reductions tonight at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific, and there are a few things that could happen as we've already speculated about. With Sony announcing a serious competitor for a serious price, we will surely see a sub-$30,000 EPIC. We also could see a sub-$10,000 SCARLET, and unless you got in on the recent RED deal or you ordered before 2012, that's a serious consideration, especially since SCARLET will have an upgrade path to EPIC. We don't know what that will be yet, but I wouldn't put it past RED to do something really crazy, especially since a camera equipped with the new Dragon sensor will have to cost more. A sub-$20,000 EPIC and $5,000 SCARLET would turn the industry on its head completely. I don't know if anything near those prices will happen, but it's clear the guys in California are now seriously considering what the guys in Japan are doing.

What do you guys think? Is 1080p/2K the "biggest scam in the history of the film industry"? What do you think RED will do with the price reductions tonight? At what price would you jump at SCARLET or EPIC? How about Dragon? Will you be considering the Sony options instead? Let us know in the comments.

Link: Sony F5 and F55.. --- REDUser

Your Comment

123 Comments

If there were a 5k Scarlet I'd go nuts. Absolutely nuts.

November 1, 2012

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Austin Mace

A $5K Scarlet with a $500 adapter that allowed the use of a broad variety of commodity SSDs to record the full internal resolution would establish them as the volume leader instead of just the tech leader. Of course, keeping RED a bit exclusive means that less crappy footage is made with them, keeping the brand shiny. It also gives bragging rights to the faithful.

Sony may have a better picture though, I felt their F65 destroyed the Epic in the Zacuto shootout. And another thing I don't like about the Epic is how loud the fan is.

November 1, 2012

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Peter

@Peter agree completely, everybody is going head over heels over price reduction of epic alone. Little do they forget that you still will have to spend an additional 4-5k at least to make it even a production camera and thats just for proprietary media capture.

One would think that spending an extra $3k for module that allows 2k 1k and 422 lower resolution would be the answer, but many red users state that shooting in anything lower than 3 or 4k is useless because the footage is widowed and gives unusable noise in footage. A 5,000 camera would make things interesting for a few but realistically unless you are shooting music videos only that price drop does not mean much if you plan on shooting even a small feature film

November 1, 2012

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Jay slocum

I hate this propriety shit, weather its Sony, canon Panasonic, or any other company, why cant they make a camera which can be adapted with third party recording modules and mounts, like Sony stated here for fs700 , f5 and f55 that you are able to record 4k but only with Sony sr recorder, this is bulls***. every company is trying to make allot of sales but considering the times that every 3-4 months any one is releasing the new camera with new technology, i am afraid we would see any impressive sales for any company.

They are shooting in the foot, lets see what happens today at red.

November 1, 2012

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auri

I hate speculation.

If RED is going to do something as big as turn the industry on it's head with lower prices, the least I can do is wait till 5PM to see what they come out with.

As far as 2K... every day I get older. My eyes are having more and more difficulty parsing out the pixels on a screen. Sure, I can differentiate a 4k image from a 2k image, but only for so long.

November 1, 2012

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Valid points. Also just checked out your site- never had heard of it, loving it already, especially the Paid/Unpaid article, this has been on my mind all day today before finding your article!

November 1, 2012

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Austin Mace

With how much the industry has changed in just the last four years, it doesn't surprise me with this statement. I have always been content with 2K, but to speculate a 5K Scarlet, or even under 10K would be incredible. There have been so many chances for others to step up and turn the industry with a possible release of a camera like that, but yes, a Scarlet under 7K would be insane.

November 1, 2012

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Shawn Hermsen

Most internet connections can barely handle 720p content. But it's great that we are moving forward. I'd love a 4k projector at my house.

November 1, 2012

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john jeffreys

I disagree with him saying that 1080p/2k was a scam, because then that's to say any digital video technology was a scam before RED came along (remember when you could shoot to SD cards at 4:3 and a max of 480, then 720?).

The world really needs to be slowly ushered towards things with a hint of what's to come (exactly as Jim said: RED did it six years ago). Remember that many people probably can't afford the newest tech, and so wait for those prices to come down while accepting what's there at the time (especially if you got rid of the idea of "credit cards" since you really don't have that money anyways...).

I wonder if there will be a time in the future where someone will claim RED's 4k/5k approach was the biggest scam in the history of the world, and 8k or 12k is where it's at?

November 1, 2012

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I think you misunderstand his point. he refers to 1080/2k as a scam because previously the industry had been shooting and projecting 35m, which is 4/5k equivalent. So in effect, the industry has tried to sell technology with well under half the resolution, as good enough. That is his point. He is not saying that 2k is scam because its not as high resolution as 4k on its own. He is saying its a scam because it is less than what had been the standard for a hundred years.

November 1, 2012

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ProgMan

Oh I see - thanks for the clarification!

Maybe in a couple decades kids will be shooting 1080p to get that "old-timey look" hah!

November 1, 2012

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I know of a whole bunch of great looking movies shot on XL1's and whole bunch of crappy movies shot on RED.

We're currently in production on a project shot on hacked GH2s and Leica glass and it looks good enough. It doesn't look that much worse than our last project shot on Epic.

And as a producer, I had the flexibilty to grab one of the cameras, hop on a JetBlue to Chicago and shoot some nice little things we never could have afforded otherwise.

The future is mostly not going to be about the high end. The low end already looks good enough to project at a megaplex. The future is going to be about reducing crew size and increasing flexibility.

Maybe 20 movies and a few dozen shows a year will be shot on RED and Alexa in the future; but hundreds of movies will be shot on DSLRs. That's the real revolution.

November 1, 2012

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Dan

"I know of a whole bunch of great looking movies shot on XL1′s and whole bunch of crappy movies shot on RED."

I know of a whole bunch of great looking paintings made with cheap spraycans on free brick walls and a whole bunch of crappy paintings made with the finest oil paints and canvases. So?

November 1, 2012

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

¿'A whole bunch of great looking movies shot on XL1′s'? ¿Really?

November 1, 2012

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You're a little behind the curve man. Hundreds of films are being shot on the Alexa alone, the DSLR revolution has ended. The reason we are talking about red, is if they drop the price of the scarlet, they could bring 4k to within the price range of the original 1D. The revolution will be 4k for under 10k. I don't mean to insult you, but that mindset you espouse as a "producer" is the mindset that is killing film and damaging the industry. When you put this only in terms of money, and disregard undisputed higher quality formats out of a price concern, you sully the craft.

November 1, 2012

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ProgMan

Have to disagree. What matters is how much things cost to make. End of story. That's what propels this industry (and many others). Beauty has a market too - but if you can reach your market for less, then do it. Anything else is vanity. All these cameras are tools. A hole dug with a gold-plated shovel is still a hole.
Every camera decision on any show is based on delivering the right pictures to make the most money. Its called 'production value'. The second word being the more important.

Finally, I don't know too many films on XLH1s, but three I love were shot on EX3s, and absolutely delivered. Does this mean you can shoot 'Cloud Atlas' with two GH1s and a Kino? No.

November 1, 2012

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marklondon

Totally agree

November 1, 2012

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Jeff

if you're really comparing cameras to shovels then you lost me and no disrespect to you but you're argument sucks like the quality of old dv footage shot on XL1s. really? you seriously think the XL1 footage looks good enough on a cinema screen. I for one would never ever pay $10 to $12 dollars to watch something shot on an XL1 at a movie theater. I can barely stand watching it on my 40 inch LED tv.

November 1, 2012

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john

If you are or aren't going to watch a film based on what it's shot on, then the experience is lost on you.

November 1, 2012

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I totally get the spirit of your comment Dan, even though others didn't.

November 1, 2012

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Jeff

This is AWESOME (for the consumers)!!

I agree with Austin. I would buy a Scarlet tomorrow if it dropped to $5k

November 1, 2012

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Antonio Pantoja

I think 1080p is still wonderful for projection.

When getting into resolution arguments I always like to cite that 28 Days later was done on a very dirty 480p format and looked fine on the big screen.

Just get a camera and shoot, right?

November 1, 2012

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Kevin

28 days later is the classic argument, but its really a straw man. SD worked in 28DL because it was a horror film. Plenty of shitty horror movies, (not calling 28DL shitty) have used shitty cameras to scary effect, that's the nature of the genre, if you try to shoot drama or something serious in SD, you wouldn't get it in theaters to begin with. Also, as we all know, in higher level camera you're not only gaining resolution, but also, dynamic range, color depth etc.

November 1, 2012

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ProgMan

Just a minor correction: it's a UK movie, and SD in PAL means 576 lines, not 480. SD resolution in PAL is 20% greater than NTSC, at the cost of temporal resolution that you don't need for cinema anyway.

November 1, 2012

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That "film" is a perfect example! It looks awful. I can't stand the motion---it's so ugly and distracting. I've only seen that movie once, and the sequel two or three times... The movie really shouldn't have used DV...it's a better movie than the sequel, but I just can't connect well when I'm distracted. Yes, there are great movies and shows shot on crappy formats (Hoop Dreams, 28 Days Later, All in the Family) and bad movies shot in good formats (Far and Away in 65mm)...but it just makes it more tragic with the good ones because they're going to look like crap *forever*...

At 1st, I thought JJ (Jim Jannard, not John Jefferies, another inflammatory "JJ") was kind of going overboard saying "scam"...but looking to the future, he's right. Big budget stuff should never shoot 1080/2k... I think he's 100% right... As someone just commented about TVland...yeah, anything on film can be rescanned to 4K...and they will live forever. I think that's what JJ probably meant. These are big studios who are looking at their archives. Think about it---I've bought Casablanca on VHS, laserdisc, DVD, HD-DVD, and now bluray (in fact, when I got bluray, I used that movie---a black and white, mono sound, academy aspect ratio film as my example of the beauties of higher def TeeVee...not Baraka or Blade Runner or Girl w/ a Dragon Tattoo...etc...). That movie is "forever"...(and forever associated with the Warner Bros. studio)...this wouldn't be the case if they shot on something that dates really quickly, especially in the future when everything is 4k or more. The future needs to keep to the 35mm standard and 2k does not meet that.

I remember reading in AC about Seinfeld...by about midway through its run, they started shooting in 16:9 cuz they knew they needed to look ahead...now all these years later, we still don't have it in HD in any aspect ratio...but it's there and you know it will come eventually (probably in time for the next Festivus season)...but all the giant budgeted popcorn movies are not going to look so good in the future if they used 1080 or 2k. As far as those saying 1080 is good enough...yeah, I agree, plenty of people are gonna be happy and fine with SD...but to say greater than 1080 isn't already here--even partially at home...just look at how small 1080 looks are native resolution on a 27" iMac. As far as the quality---just download the Timescapes trailer in 1080 and the 2.5k (or whatever---there is one version that is the same exact resolution as the 27" iMac screen)...you can't tell me the 1080 version is that good compared to 2.5k.

November 10, 2012

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Daniel Mimura

The global shutter thing on the Sonys is much more exciting. I hope it will trickle down to affordable cameras. Concerning 4k, doesn't the Alexa offer it as an option? If not, they're sure to have one ready whenever everyone thinks they need it.

George - tshit.de/freshdailies

November 1, 2012

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Alexa is 2.8K RAW.

November 1, 2012

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

I give props to Red as well as to Sony. I think that all of the competition is in the best interest for every consumer and pro to have the right tools for the right job. But when you can begin to factor in the Right price. Things are quickly becoming interesting.

Having done some major DIT work both commercial and cinema. The majority of people don't even know how to properly utilize the cameras to their fullest capabilities. And light most things so poorly that they are left to devices of camera. Cameras have their benefits and limitations. So many people these days need to return to the fundamentals of proper cinematography, lighting, and general storytelling. Great content will always be king.

Congrats to both Sony and Red. But in reality congrats to the end line buyers of both.

November 1, 2012

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Nature

If the Scarlet drops to $5000....Black Magic is screwed!

November 1, 2012

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sean

fingres crossed but doubt it, Red has what you call " green integrity" to keep, dropping the price that low would in their eyes make it a consumer camera and they want to keep it a right balance not to high , not too low, the only reason for price drop is because of competition IMO, but hey who knows , we shall shall see

November 1, 2012

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Jay slocum

Once the lights go out and the movie comes on it doesn't make any difference. I've seen a bunch of 1080P short films on the screen in a large movie theater. Looks great. The public couldn't tell the different between 1080P and 4K. One can only sees the difference when they are side by side on the same screen.

More resolution does not necessarily make a better end product to the paying public.

November 1, 2012

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There's also frame rate, compression, dynamic range, color depth, and build quality. This isn't a one issue discussion, it is not only resolution that increases with quality and price.

November 1, 2012

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ProgMan

thank you progman for saying everything I would've said.

November 1, 2012

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john

The fact that these new cameras from Sony can do 2k, 4k, raw and other various codecs at different bit rates makes these cameras a sure winner. This is something i always wished RED could do. I know that you cant have one camera that can do everything, but i think this is the closest thing to it.
One question, Does it window in like Red when you drop from 4k to 2k?

November 1, 2012

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Tj

There is no window, it's the full area, so they are combining pixels to get 2k RAW.

November 1, 2012

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Joe Marine
Editor-at-Large
Shooter/Writer/Director

Pretty exciting stuff!

In the cinema world I'd say that 1080p is crap, but in the internet/home theater world I'd say its about right.

I think 2k, or 2.5k in BMCC's case is an exceptional resolution to low-budget cinema work. But in mid-big budget productions, yeah make it for real, do it in 4k.

November 1, 2012

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Micah

Could care less about price drop for the EPIC, because im not Christopher Nolan . Realistically , anything over 15k will be rentals for us everyday "Common" folks, so priced drop or not will not really matter. What im waiting for is price drop for epic if there is even a price drop.

As far as 1080p and 2k being a scam , this is the equivalent of saying that the Petroleum industry biggest scam was allowing 87 regular gas versus Premium HIGHER GRADE FUEL, sure premium fuel is better for fuel injectors and a lil extra performance, but this does not mean that regular fuel is irrelevant. I can still get a fuel cleaner every 2k miles just like a film maker can "fine tune" and correct in post.

The lowest i see the scarlett being is maybe 7k, Jim has stated from day one that they make prosumer products (money$$$$) this is the reason they didnt come out with a $3k fixed lens camera, because they know the aftermarket and hacker community would find a way to allow interchangeble lens. What Jim is saying is not wrong , but it aint completely right either.

November 1, 2012

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Jay slocum

Chris Nolan doesn't give a shit about red either.

November 1, 2012

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ProgMan

4K is the next frontier...but we are not there yet. Not even close. None of the outlets for media (TV screens or movie screens) are there yet. They will definitely get there, but were are at least 5 years from it being mainstream...so 2K content has LOTS of life left in it.

In 5 years, will there be bigger and better cameras? Absolutely! Which is why, in my opinion, unless you're shooting a feature on the cutting edge, investing in a 4K system today is overkill.

It does make me wonder....what will RED do once everyone's at the 4K party? Start on 8K? There is a maximum limit to "resolution"...I think 4K is pretty much as far as they need to go...so are they going to focus on DR? FPS? It's like DSLRs that were in a megapixel race for 5 years...then they switched to HIGH ISO / low noise...then video.

What other "magic" do you guys think they will focus on next?

November 1, 2012

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sean

Probably a camera that can pull focus on the footage in post, now imagine that :-)

November 1, 2012

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Tj

they already have that, its called a Lytro and they are working on video applications of it (its a still camera at this point)

November 1, 2012

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john jeffreys

@SEAN agree true 4k is enough, h3ll 2k is fine with post work and a lens other than canon L seriesoverated crap that will hold up on the big screen. AVATAR IMAX a 108o film was one of the sharpest films i ever saw on imax, again they had millions to throw at it with post "fine tuning" but none the less it was 1080 hd.

I think the sony f65 was the best digital film that got it right on paper as far as an equivalent to film. If red had a clearance today and dropped the price of 8,000 red one today, trust me no one but hollywood would buy epics or scarletts, which is the reason why the one x has and will not drop. still interested to see scarlett price will be and Sony will be has it's ear to the streets.

November 1, 2012

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Jay slocum

I wish RED would accept 2k as a totally appropriate format. Honestly how may RED productions actually see theatrical release? Not to mention actually get 4k projection / delivery? 1%?? 0.5%?? 0.1%??

Come on RED, internet distribution is far and away the BIGGEST distribution channel in the world today. If you want mass market appeal, forget about 4k projectors and 8k upgrade pipelines... and get to work on retina displays and youtube server bandwidth. THAT is the infrastructure that needs more power!

Seriously, a 2k scarlet would be sensational if it existed like RIGHT NOW! But - correct me if I'm wrong - Scarlet is totally useless at anything less than 4k, as it crops the sensor to hell.

RED is cool, but they overshot the market. Black Magic is now filling in the gap that they skipped right over.

We're close to the money shot camera. BMCC just needs a larger chip (and a camera that you can actually, you know... buy) and we're there.

November 1, 2012

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dv

why do you need Red`s approval to shoot 2K? who the heck is Red to award itself such a role? I hear their constant 4K blabla for years now - none of the productions I was personally involved in delivered more than 2K, regardless if it was Red One, Epic, Alexa, 35mm or Super16, regardless if it was a tv series or theatrical movie

November 1, 2012

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Mariano

No one needs their approval. I merely WANT their innovation and good business practices in a market that is more useful to more people.

November 1, 2012

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dave

Red can offer and do whatever they want - the alleged price of Sony`s cameras and the fact that it is SONY alone who offers them makes it a clear decision for me towards Sony - until someone else with such a long track record like Panasonic or maybe even Arri comes out with an even better product.

November 1, 2012

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Mariano

Not really a tip of the hat to Sony - at least not a genuine one. More an excuse for Jim to boast (again). How's the view from up there on your high horse?

If 99% of the general public were pixel-peeping geeks then there might be something to his argument re: 1080p/2K but the world doesn't work that way. It's called progress and progress can only be effective with a stepped development. Before putting a man on the Moon, NASA had to put a man in orbit first.

Jannard's hyperbole makes him the PT Barnum of our age. Smoke and mirrors aimed at luring folks into the Cult of RED so they can get your $$$ through their upgrade paths. Sadly plenty of other corporations are following the same lead (I'm looking at you Adobe). This camera Koolaid isn't tasting so good any more.

November 1, 2012

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Neil

The studio I mostly freelance at works on a daily basis with clients like Disney, ABC, Nat Geo and a number of other cable channels.

Believe me, NONE of the clients or anyone in the studio wants a 4K work flow and nobody thinks that there will be a 4K broadcast signal within 10 years, if even that. For movies, 4K will come faster, but TV moves at a glacial pace compared to film, so HD is here for a long time.

I started working in TV about 10 years ago and when I started was the beginning of the SD to HD transition. Only in the last 4 years, have the jobs become almost entirely HD (we still get SD jobs here and there). The transition from SD to HD was pretty brutal in terms of work flow and computer processing power took a while to catch up.

With HD only being fully here for maybe 4 to 5 years, nobody in broadcast is in a huge rush to move forward to 4K. That is going to take years and years before the 4K broadcast transition, because nobody really wants to do it since it's insanely expensive to do and time consuming.

4K is great for film (maybe), great for VFX and post cropping; but HD is not going anywhere, at least with broadcast.

November 1, 2012

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Gene

Finally a sensible comment. I too have jobs that are still in SD, and have delivered exactly ONE job in 4K (that was immediately downrezzed for broadcast). Its a big, slow world folks. People at home VERY happy with their HD if they have it.

November 1, 2012

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marklondon

I get the feeling we are probably looking at a 7K or 8K price for the Scarlet and 25K to 30K for the Epic.
gotta hand it to RED, they got the balls to do what's necessary in the right moment.

November 1, 2012

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Raphael Wood

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