November 19, 2013

RED Teases Smaller & Faster 512GB/1TB Cards in Firmware 5.1.29, New MiniMags Shipping Late 2013

RED MiniMag Reader and Side SSDWhile they aren't technically new, RED has quietly taken the wraps off of new capacities for their MiniMags, which were originally designed for the Proxy Module to record DNxHD and ProRes. Even though it was announced at NAB, that module has not been released yet, but RED has decided to take the same kind of cards and use them inside a brand new Side SSD to record RAW. In addition, RED has also increased support for a number of Canon lenses in Beta firmware v5.1.29. Read on for more on the Side SSD and Canon lens support.

Here are the details on what's new in firmware v5.1.29:

Please make sure to black shade all Dragon Cameras after upgrade.

Added support for Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS

Added support for Canon EF_24mm f/2.8

Added support for Canon EF 400mm f/2.8

Added support for Canon EF 500mm f/4

Added support for Sigma 18-35mm

Added 1/8s exposure cap for all Dragon revisions

Fix player hang with invalid in/out set points

Fix intermittent startup failure with Motion Mount installed

Fix help when displayed on 9" LCD

Fix focus size when center point is selected

Fix HDRx stop changes causing monitor artifacts

Fix PRO IO AES audio not working

Fix Serious Error message on shutdown

Image quality enhancements for Dragon

Calibration enhancements for Dragon

MiniMag 512gb and 1TB support

Click the image below to check out a video of the new Side SSD being installed:

RED MiniMag Reader and Card

It's unclear what the image quality and calibration enhancements are for DRAGON, but I imagine we're going to be seeing a lot more of those over the coming months, as it seems they are going to keep tweaking the image on the new sensor for some time. As for the MiniMags, they may still be used for proxy recording, but it looks like the main focus will be on using them for RAW, and we might finally get something very close to uncompressed RAW for those who really want it (from Jarred in the forum):

I have no idea what you are talking about since the MiniMag isn't going to be released till the end of the year, but If I were to guess:

No PRORES.. we still believe in a RAW workflow and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Speeds increased.. so much so the readers are now 6G. Which aids in lower compression on camera, and much quicker offloading. Pretty nice since the cards are now half the size.

Here is a photo of the back of the new MiniMag reader, which has 6G eSATA, USB 3.0, and FireWire 800 (still no Thunderbolt yet):

RED MiniMag Reader

It only makes sense that media would get smaller and faster over time, and having two different sets of media for proxy and regular recording doesn't make too much sense. What RED may eventually do is more or less phase out the old media and at some point the only Side SSD with new cameras would be the MiniMag, but that likely wouldn't happen for some time. I would hope to see prices finally come down a lot on the regular SSDs, because they have stayed about the same for a few years now, even though SSD costs are now much lower.

With cameras like the ARRI AMIRA using off-the-shelf media, and Sony offering a RAW recording 512GB card for $1,800, it's time for RED to bring their prices more in line with those of other manufacturers. No matter how bulletproof RED may claim their cards are, the $3,900 512GB REDMAG is more than double the price of Sony's media. Lowering prices wouldn't make current owners of lots of media very happy, but it doesn't make sense to keep prices artificially high when others companies are coming in much lower.

These are going to be officially announced next month, and should be ready by the end of the year -- though RED is notoriously bad at keeping deadlines. If you were in the market for REDMAGs, it's probably a good idea to wait a while to see what happens with prices (as they should come down on current media).

Click the links below to download the new firmware.

Links:

Your Comment

75 Comments

"Next Month" = Summer 2015

November 19, 2013 at 11:20AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply
Thom

LOL!!! HAHAHA it's funny because their motto is "obsolete obsolence".......it should be "Ironic mode on" ahahhahahaha

November 19, 2013 at 12:27PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
Jesuan

For all their faults, the MX sensor from 2009 is still being used on many 50-100 million dollar plus features and countless other music videos and indie productions. Almost 5 years is an eternity in digital technology, and the Sony F35 which was worth $250,000 in 2008, is now worth under $10,000 used, and I'd be surprised to find it on any sets except for those where people have purchased them for nothing.

November 19, 2013 at 12:45PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

Joe, there's no defense for a company that is routinely 2 years late on products, and can't deliver what they've announced after such a delay, yet are still announcing new things.

Release the stuff you've promised before you hose all the current owners with new products. Make the RED MAGS cheaper, there is no reason why these current mags are obsolete. We'd own more if RED could start pricing them realistically.

The modularity of the Epic system has been almost a complete disaster. It's not really modular since there's no real useful modules to speak of. How is the Proxy module integrated if it doesn't even carry the video feed through the module connectors thus requiring you eat up the SDI out from the Epic to the Proxy, like some horrible Brazil-like/Gilliam-esque device?! Same with the +1 module. You can pass video through the modules to the Pro/IO but for nearly 1300 grand I need to eat up the HDMI module.

Yikes.

November 19, 2013 at 1:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Thom

Honestly at this point it's to be expected that they aren't going to deliver anything on time.

As far as the modules, I completely agree. I think it's time for RED to adopt a full camera strategy like Sony and ARRI and make a larger body that is better balanced and does everything you need it to do.

November 19, 2013 at 1:52PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

5
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

That module, if it ever comes, does pass through the HD-SDI. I agree it's far from graceful. You might as well send the signal to a monitor that records pro-res, and save a bundle, really. But as far as the whole thing goes, being able to upgrade the camera continually is really nice.

November 19, 2013 at 2:20PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply
Paul Watt

Passes through HDSDI yes, but it means to be at all useful it has to be a clean output. Which means that say if I need to send video with overlays out via wireless, or to a director's monitor I'm effectively hosed.

The issue is that ultimately RED needs to address the issues they have now, before throwing another ecosystem of mags/readers our way, when as stated the current mags are still dramatically overpriced.

November 19, 2013 at 2:37PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Thom

if you dont like it DO NOT USE it..go buy F65 or Alexa hope you can afford those..

November 19, 2013 at 3:00PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

4
Reply
Kemalettin

Yeah screw user feedback! And I try to rent the Alexa whenever possible.

November 19, 2013 at 3:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Thom

Couldn't you use HDMI for that. Set Brain HDMI to full menu and Brain HD-SDI to clean. I never record pro-res off an Epic, but I think that should work. I wish I could record pro-res 1080 from within the camera a lot tho. I suspect it's technically possible.

November 19, 2013 at 6:14PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
Paul Watt

Joe

The s35 as of recently just started to fizzle out of existence, and tecnically if you want to compare numbers, the s35/panSoni genesis was on way more tv productions , features , Nd commercials than red . Practically every soap opera and usa channel production used until dps moved towards alexas

November 19, 2013 at 2:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

3
Reply
jayee

Sure, but almost no one is using them now, that was my point. USA actually still shoots a bunch of stuff on RED. I was just pointing out it's still popular among lots of productions and probably still will be for a few more years, whereas a camera that was top of the line near the same time isn't being used much anymore.

November 19, 2013 at 2:45PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

In a nutshell, Joe, why did the F35 fall from grace ?

November 19, 2013 at 2:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Saied

its a HD camera shoots worse than 5d mk2

November 19, 2013 at 3:01PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Kemalettin

Kemalettin, you're an idiot to think that. The F35 makes wonderful images, and still does.

November 19, 2013 at 3:21PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Thom

I would actually say the F35 when lit well or in daylight looks better than RED, but people have stopped using it in favor of ALEXA and to some extent RED. It's also an unwieldy camera, and until a few years ago you had to record to HDCAM tapes. Otherwise it's probably going to look better than any of the under $10,000 cameras out there, even the newest ones.

November 19, 2013 at 3:35PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

As Joe said, when lit properly (sorry but Dragon and a bunch of DR is no excuse for poor lighting when you have a say in the matter) the F35 has more effective the the Epic (RED claims 13.5 but it's less than that in real world tests) at 14 stops. We've shot with the F35 and a PIX 240 and man did it make some stunning 2K imagery.

November 19, 2013 at 3:38PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Thom

Also another downfall of the s35 is the fact that its a pl mount only, its only 1080p in dpx which until recently worked only with the Gemini budget wise, which just didn't make sense financial ly comparably on par with red media.

But for what its worth, the s35 dynamic range is on par if not berter than the alexa

November 19, 2013 at 5:55PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
jayee

@Thom
LMAO, the F35 with 14 stops of DR? What dream world are you living in? Plus I love how good lighting is more important than DR when you're talking about Dragon, then immediately transition to how great the F35's DR is...

November 20, 2013 at 5:12PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

4
Reply
Gabe

Honestly, the media prices is one of the top issues that keeps me out of a scarlet pkg.

November 19, 2013 at 12:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
sean

And the price of their modularity makes it very hard to justify as a rental. Especially now, when I have so many other options that use off-the-shelf media and are a fraction of the cost.

I mean, you will be able to buy a full BMCC 4k camera with a 512GB SSD for the price of one 512GB mag...thats just stupid

November 19, 2013 at 1:43PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

5
Reply
Chris

...and what do you call it when that off the shelf SSD fucks up your footage? I love what Black Magic is doing, but don't delude yourself, the real world isn't as great as it looks like on paper.

November 20, 2013 at 5:14PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
Gabe

Red SSD mags are "off the shelf" stuff. At least all the older ones.

Sony 4K cards (F5 / F55) are real Raid5 supported which is simply from different planet when compared to Red stuff. They are also a lot faster than all the (older) Red cards.

Basically Red SSDs are scam, just like all the other overpriced brand crap in every business (think Apple...), with no real added value. Cheapest Toshiba etc. drives inside custom enclosure.

November 20, 2013 at 11:19PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

4
Reply
Juhan-i

Well having been on set with them and never having them fail...I fail to see the problem. Again, real world trumps spouting specs.

And by the way, the Red mags aren't off the shelf SSDs, they may use the same chips as off the shelf SSDs, but that's not the same thing...they're able to pick the best of those chips.

November 21, 2013 at 4:38PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Gabe

$3,900.00? 512 GB? Ok

November 19, 2013 at 12:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Anthony Marino

Yeah that's the price of the current 512GB REDMAG, not the MiniMag. I have to believe new prices are going to be much lower, as they are a bit high compared to the competition.

November 19, 2013 at 12:47PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

Yes that's a tough price. Are they rentals? Makes much more sense

November 19, 2013 at 12:54PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply
Anthony Marino

They were really only popular with those working on high-end jobs, but I know a couple places horded them and rented them out. They've been out of stock at RED for some time without much explanation, but I think the competition plus the MiniMag strategy played into that.

November 19, 2013 at 12:58PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

Keep in mind the 512GB mag is also super fast, which allows for better compression at higher framerates, *and* also allows you to dump footage faster on set. Those things are worth the cost on high end productions...not necessarily on micro budget productions.

November 20, 2013 at 5:16PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Gabe

you guys are completely nonsense...saying RED MEDIA prices are expensive as hell..Please go check Sony prices <3
512GB SR memory http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/831335-REG/Sony_SR_512S55_SR_512S5...

and RED saying they r gonna lower the prices..you guys still complaining
ah god!

November 19, 2013 at 3:05PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Kemalettin

That card already does 444, something the Epic is still incapable of doing. So yes, in that situation, it wins. RED may be lowering prices, not confirmed by the way if and how much, at the expense of making you buy all new media, readers, and a side SSD module. That's NOT A PRICE SAVINGS.

Kemalettin Sert, I appreciate your enthusiasm for the company, I own an Epic as well, but changing media when they can't even ship the shit they've promised for years is just...ugh...it's bad.

November 19, 2013 at 3:19PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Thom

Tom if you dont like it Tell RED they ll gladly sell you Dragon as a new Camera no upgrades or whatsoever like Arri and Sony does! you gonna be more happier that way? that card does 444 because F65 records 444.you think RED SSDs cant make 444? lol :) i used F65 many times and did DIT jobs with that machine
Sony F65 4K SQ is same size with 5K 3:1

November 19, 2013 at 3:26PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
Kemalettin

I'd gladly take an Alexa any time, any place. And I have told RED. There's a reason why Epics are sitting on shelves for rentals, and C300s and Alexas are constantly being rented.

Also it's Thom, I spelled your name right at least.

November 19, 2013 at 3:32PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Thom

Sorry about wrong spelling couldnt edit my old post (tried it)
we are rental company too ( www.dijitalist.com.tr) and we are in Turkey (the country with most alexas in the world go ask arri if you dont believe me)
despite of this we rent Epic nonstop even Scarlet..( we own 2 epic 1 scarlet 1 Alexa+;Master Prime Cookes etc.)
Epic is the best product we could work with ever..Alexa came up with XR module which costs to upgrade same price with RED Camera..how could i feel sorry if i pay 1500$ for SIDE SSD Module?
go cry Arri if you could do it :) We are so lucky to have a company who listens customers!!!!!!!
i agree with you about delievering products late but what can we do? i dont want RED to deliever on time if they charge same price with arri /sony

November 19, 2013 at 3:43PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Kemalettin

Dear Thom,
Excuse my language is not correct .
I think your statements are not appropiate , we have many Alexa in use but since we had education on Epic , many directors and cinematographers choose Epic , very small , timelaps , slow motion , to prerecorder 30 "very important for documentary animal , be very transportable as a canon 5d , there is no need for color correction right away, see white Set etc etc. . everything you can do in post production , and luckily recorded over 1080 so we can stabilize without losing information .
What do you want more?
Why cotinuare to criticize ?
Regarding its modularity be a considerable strength , first of all the energy saving of what is not needed , a battery with EPIC lasts 3 hours with our Alexa do not overcome 1h .. in short, three times the battery pack to carry around .
The thing that we can say , perhaps, that if you have to do things quickly ProRes be the right direction.

November 19, 2013 at 7:10PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
ZDF TV

The Epic's color science is pretty awful. Maybe with Dragon it'll be better. But it takes too long in post to have something as pleasing as the Alexa. Also on the west coast, especially in the Hollywood area Alexas are rarely in stock. While Epics just...sit...there...gathering dust. The Epic is great for visual effects shots.

Obsolesces Obsolete? What a joke, "hey we know you just invested thousands into memory modules, but fuck you, you now need to buy new memory!" I don't think people understand that unless the side SSD modules are backwards compatible that you will have to sell off your old mags, to buy new mags. This is NOT a price savings.

November 20, 2013 at 11:38AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

6
Reply
Thom

@Thom
Hey speak for yourself, up here in Seattle the Red's dominate.

November 20, 2013 at 5:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Gabe

@Thom

Thom I'm sorry to hear that.
We have not found problems in the colors with Epic, I can only say that Alexa has more dynamic range in the highlights, and be a little better with tungsten light, but for the rest with a good DP everything is perfectly equal.
However, in this period we remember that it is very fashionable the Octocopter, Movi etc etc Alexa climbs above there is too heavy ... Epic is best for now in these things for its modularity. Just think if Dragon was much better than Alexa!
On the shelves there who will be Dragon or Alexa?
We'll see .......

November 20, 2013 at 9:29PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
ZDF TV

It's too bad ARRI doesn't go for 6K or 8K. They're just going for 4K now, which still, is great. I guess you have to have a daring bone in your body to go out farther than everyone. I think Red has 8K in the works. Can't wait! A commenter here named marklondon says 4K will be the 720p of UHD, the basic UHD, with other higher K's in use too. I was told Sony is working on a 16K sensor but most of the resolution will be put into making the image holographic--however that will be done.

November 21, 2013 at 12:46AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

4
Reply
Gene

If the c300 could do 10 bit internally then they would kill the game, canons color sceince and lowlight is everything

November 19, 2013 at 5:58PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
jayee

lol

November 19, 2013 at 6:03PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Kemalettin

TRUE…and then there's kodak

November 20, 2013 at 12:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

4
Reply
DIO

True!

November 20, 2013 at 6:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
Martin

Playboy RED owners make me laugh. You could buy a car, see the world, or buy a house with all the money this shit costs. Most video/film jobs that people are getting now a days are straight to web anyhow. Just makes me laugh. RED gear is impressive and fun to use but, sooo unnecessary. Just rent it if you need it and don't go broke over it. Only RED owners I respect are the genius RED ONE battle tested owners. 4k for 4k!

PS: More from Robert Hardy please! His tutorial posts have been incredible!

November 19, 2013 at 6:26PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Gordon Casey

Every time I see a comment like that, "most jobs are straight to web" I cant help but be baffled. I understand not everyone on NFS is a shooter, but if you make your money producing some sort of video content and cant tell the difference between RED footage and say something shot on a 5D online you should rethink what you do for a living. Regardless of your delivery format you should strive to shoot the best quality, whether that be RED, Alexa, F5 and if a DSLR is the best youve got make it shine, but you should strive for delivering the best regardless, if not youre nothing more than a construction worker. The benefits of the new generation of cinema cameras are not only seen on a theatre sized screen, otherwise most big productions in the world, the ones most here strive to work on, wouldnt be shooting on Alexa, RED etc. The quality of these cameras are not "unnecessary" otherwise the top directors and DPs in the world wouldnt be choosing them time and time again, and thats not limited to motion picture production.

Ive got a home, a car, and have traveled quite a bit, and owning a RED has been a part of that, and helped my business grow. I rent what I need and purchase smart. All business' require investment, and 20-50K on gear is an extremely small investment for anyone starting a business venture of any kind. Your situation and your world view is not everyone else, so dont assume it to be the case.

Some people do very well owning, others stick to renting and it works. A hybrid of that has worked very well for me and my team. I see no reason to disrespect people with a different business sense then yourself.

November 19, 2013 at 6:38PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
carlos

Carlos I think each camera for its job. Still if we watch the Zacuto revenge of the great american shootout no one has noticed which of the cameras was an iphone!!! This has to mean something. There are people all over the world using iphone shooting commercials and plenty of people shooting movies with RED and Alexa. To be honest I don´t care. It is up to each one of us to choose what we like and want. I don´t buy cameras or anything for the price and surely not because of what people say. I have a RED to rent and I haven´t used it more than 4 or 5 times. It is a rental piece and that´s it. Do you know how many times I wanted to use RED or Alexa and the client says,,,no way it is too expensive. Find a diferente workflow...at those times I had a choice shoot with something else or not shooting...which one would you choose?

November 19, 2013 at 7:03PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Augusto Alves d...

I hear you loud and clear, Augusto, everyone works within their market and niche. There was a time where I dreamed of shooting on a RED but the clients simply couldnt afford it. Now 90% of my jobs are RED gigs. The zacuto shoot out is one isolated set of results, and Im sorry but any DP worth his weight in gold CAN tell the difference between and iphone and something shot on the higher end cinema cameras.

"There are people all over the world using iphone shooting commercials"

Sorry man but I dont buy it. People are not shooting commercial work on iphones, maybe theyre used to get a phone video effect, but other than that it doesnt make sense. If youre shooting a commercial the camera rental price is a tiny fraction of your budget. Commercial work around the world is dominate by Alexa.

November 19, 2013 at 7:48PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
carlos

Valid points Carlos but, i'd love to see your overhead expenses for your business, house and car compared to mine. Every business needs to be profitable and the less you have to pay every month the more money you take home to play with all sorts of different cameras and grow said business. I'll almost bet that there's some Joe Kid with a DSLR out there that could smoke us both on talent alone. I'd personally hate to only be stuck shooting with a RED all the time Pretty sure the world's best DP's aren't always going back to shooting a RED and if you think that then RED's marketing has got you by the balls. Side note, if you have to defend yourself with a mile long paragraph of writing your life story defending your business maybe it's you who should really reconsider what you do for a living.

November 20, 2013 at 2:27PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply

How would equipment that I paid for in full upon purchase affect my business' overhead? My overhead is actually quite low, but my gear has nothing to do with that as its all paid for. Not sure what you're getting at. Secondly shooting on RED is the first option offered to clients as its what I own, but we have shot on cameras from every manufacturer in the game and they've always been rented.

Joe KIdd is more than welcome to compete in my market with his DSLR. I got to where I am now shooting on DSLRs.

Some of my favorite DPs ONLY shoot on film, others ONLY shoot on Alexa, and others ONLY on RED. Others mix formats. Im happy shooting RED for most my projects and any chance to shoot on anything else that is at least equal in quality is always fun.

Also, I was providing a perspective he might not have considered, not defending my business practices. And no where in my comments do I see my life story written out, so im not sure whats up your ass but maybe you should read my comments again. Im very happy doing what I do for a living :)

November 20, 2013 at 4:12PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
carlos

How does dropping 20-50k on anything as a business owner not affect your business overhead? Is that even a real question? Would you ever pay any employee his yearly salary up-front?

Another thing stop speaking for your "favorite" DP's you're probably 1,000% wrong about them not shooting with other cameras.

Equal or greater quality. LOL! Carlos, do you not have the eye to bring quality out of any camera? You seem to think you need a RED to make your subjects look good. Has it ever occurred to you that your eye for story telling and artistic abilities may be your greatest most irreplaceable asset as a filmmaker? Quality is where passion meets hard work and quality will never be defined by some playboy standing behind the lens of a RED. All you're talking about is arbitrarily raising production value so that you can line your pockets with more money to waste.

At the end of the day you're the one who has to write novel long paragraph after novel long paragraph on NFS defending your reasons for owning a RED. First world problems much? Don't go trying to write it off as if you're try to teach me some lesson about life and different perspectives?

November 20, 2013 at 6:20PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply

Now, that's how your write a novel long response!

November 20, 2013 at 6:22PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply

An investment I made over a year ago has zero effect on my business overhead, I didnt think I'd needto clarify this but in its simplest form business overhead=operational costs, both fixed and variable, a once time calculated investment made over a year ago is neither of those. How you cant understand that is beyond me.

You should get out of the habit of putting words in peoples mouth, nothing I said alluded to life lessons, I was offering an opinion, a perspective, the very purpose of comment boards. A novel? Come on man, not every opinion can be stated in two sentences. Theres no need for me to defend anything about my business practices, offering my view on things as an owner is not defending, its simply adding a POV to an ongoing conversation.

You dont need a RED to make good images, however I strive to give my clients the highest quality and RED meets that standard as does Alexa, film, F5 etc. I hate shooting on DSLRs, but do when I have to. Is that a crime? Can I make the most of the camera sure, but Id rather shoot better, somehow that diminishes story telling and artistic abilities? WTF are you talking about? They are not mutually exclusive.

Jeff Cronenweth consistently shoots RED, Since switching over from film Daruius Wolski and Don Burgess consistently shoot RED. I guess

This is not about production quality, its about image quality. Forgive me for wanting the best lol

There are DPs who will never shoot anything but film. Must mean they fail to see that their loyalty to an acquisition medium is blinding their artistic abilities and story telling skills right? I think not.

November 20, 2013 at 7:57PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
carlos

Gordon, your being very naïve. If you do not like high costs, pick up painting, filmmaking is the most expensive art form, cameras costs are actually inconsequential with respect to total costs of production. Also you're just plain wrong. A filmmaker's "eye for storytelling" can easily be limited by a low level camera. You can't shoot 3+ stops under on DSLR, if my narrative dictates low key, then DSLR will hurt the impact of my story. Its all relative buddy.

November 20, 2013 at 8:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

8
Reply
Ryan

You guys are just dead wrong.

November 21, 2013 at 12:44PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
Gordon

i love NFS...because you get chance to see people thinking like you :)

November 19, 2013 at 7:24PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply
Kemalettin

This ^

November 20, 2013 at 10:35AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Peter

ARRI vs Red? That argument comes out any time Red is mentioned like a Pavlovian response.

I've seen Life of Pi (ARRI) and The Hobbit (Red) played on 1080p tvs next to each other. The Hobbit looked better. It made the video quality of Life of Pi look outdated. Side by side brings out the reality. It's the same when a 5Diii is side by side with a GH3. The GH3 always wins. I know the ARRI has excellent color. I know it is a fantastic camera. I like the color of ARRI a lot. But the picture from Red looks better.

I know there can be technical arguments from some people why you should use ARRI. But the end product is what matters, isn't it? The Red end product looks better. And The Hobbit wasn't even shot in 6K.

BTW, ARRI is working on a 4K camera. I know that idea violates some kind of principle to some people. But higher resolution is king. ARRI should have actually leapfrogged 4K and went to 6K or 8K.

November 19, 2013 at 8:48PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

4
Reply
Gene

BTW, I am not advocating one use this or that camera.

USE THE CAMERA YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH! At the same time don't hold your breath till you turn blue in protest over some ill feelings you have about Red cameras. Why criticize it? If it isn't for you, great. If other cameras do it for you, great. If there's people finding success with Red, and if big budget movie makers are using Red, why not say great? Can't we all just get along?

Oh yeah, I'm supposed to say 4K is a big business, money making ploy, being shoved down our unwilling, mass consumer throats. ;-)

November 19, 2013 at 8:56PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Gene

Correction .... Composition and lighting is king.

November 20, 2013 at 10:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Peter

Side by side of those two films for RED vs Alexa is not factoring tons of other variables. (Different DP's being the biggest one, of course.).

Life of Pi is an abomination to cinematography, IMO, as well as 48FPS, both both of those films are terrible examples for either camera cuz one of them didn't shoot 24fps (or 23.98), and one of them didn't respect a 180° shutter.

IMO, on home TV, The Hobbit looks acceptable cuz it's 24p (23.98...whatever...)...with the imagery adjusted to look like good ol' superior 24fps/180° shutter.

November 23, 2013 at 5:56PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Daniel Mimura

What's an hour of uncompressed Red Raw, ~ 1.5T?

November 19, 2013 at 9:04PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

4
Reply
DLD

Well there is no such thing at the moment, that was my point above. You can go down to 3:1, which only the top end guys thought wasn't quite enough for certain scenes, but it depends on your frame rate and frame size:

http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time

November 19, 2013 at 9:23PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

http://web.forret.com/tools/video_fps.asp?width=4096&height=2160&fps=24&...
.
According to the above link - 4K in 444 24 fps progressive 12-bit Raw is 3.44 T/hr. 444 14-bit is 4T/he. 442 12 bit is 2.29T/hr. 422 24 fps 14-bit is 2.68 T/hr. I guess 3:1 (lossless?) compression off 444 14-bit gives you 1.3T, which is what I have seen mentioned for Red Epic on sites like Abel Cine. That would be the best quality off a given sensor/camera. New Panasonic 4K VariCam (yet to be unveiled) is supposed to do it at ~ 300 GB/hr. Off that Michael Cioni video, Canon C500/AJA Ki Pro Quad 4K ProRes is about 500 GB/hr.
.
Does it make any sense to go above 1.3T?

November 20, 2013 at 1:14AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
DLD

4:4:4 and RAW are different things. 4:4:4 refers to the pixel color sampling, so it's been debayered, whereas RAW has not been debayered and only contains information for 1 color per pixel, which is then filled in by software/hardware to give you a picture that looks right.

The calculator I posted gives you the RED data rates, which are in RAW, not RGB. RED EPIC full frame 5K 3:1 at 24fps is 512 GB per hour or so. 5K full frame at 5:1, which is what most of Spiderman and Prometheus were shot at, is about 308 GB per hour. At the lower data rates there are diminishing returns, though, which is what's nice about the RED system anyway, that you can compress for your needs and the final output.

November 20, 2013 at 5:11AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
avatar
Joe Marine
Camera Department

OK, thanks.

November 20, 2013 at 2:46PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
DLD

Good grief, that is crazy expensive for 512gigs when you can buy a typical 512gig SSD for four hundred bucks.

November 19, 2013 at 11:12PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

3
Reply

You can also lose a day's footage costing you thousands of dollars! Weeee!

November 21, 2013 at 4:42PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

2
Reply
Gabe

Well no problem with Red on that.

After all, quality control for $30K products is top notch:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?108420-Bricked-NEW-EPICs-%28...

November 22, 2013 at 10:55AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

5
Reply
Juhan-i

Another question is: When will RED support more Nikon lenses?

November 20, 2013 at 2:33AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply

because not enough these lenses?
Nikon lenses that you need?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?108706-Dragon-impressions

November 20, 2013 at 7:44AM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
luigi.valtulini

too expensive..and too boring

November 20, 2013 at 12:16PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
DIO

So many Reduser regulars posting in this... funny.

November 20, 2013 at 12:53PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
Fox Mulder

Seriously, Fox. I'm a RED USER and I guess I don't tow the company line. Screw me for not buying the brand new shiny thing.

November 20, 2013 at 12:54PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply
Thom

Drink the kool-aid, Thom. Drink it and everything will be alright. Slowly chant with me... "Obsolescence obsolete...". I'll see you on the other side... where skin tones look kinda weird and tungsten light isn't your friend.

November 21, 2013 at 1:00PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

1
Reply
Fox Mulder

What with all the RED hate? No camera system is perfect or good for every job or cheap etc.

November 22, 2013 at 12:22PM, Edited September 4, 11:21AM

0
Reply
PhilP