November 4, 2011

Q: How Do the 'Ready to Shoot' Prices of the Canon EOS C300 and RED SCARLET-X Compare?

A: They're basically the same.

First of all, you need to add all this stuff to the RED SCARLET-X to be ready to shoot:

Second of all, the list price of the Canon EOS C300 is $20,000. Once it hits retailers like B&H Photo, that will come down. Let's take its closest competitor, the Sony F3, as an example: the camera's list price is $16,800, but B&H is selling it for $13,960 ($13,160 after a rebate). So let's take 20% as the estimated street discount, which brings the $20k camera down to $16k (which has also been a reported selling price of the C300 -- probably due to confusion between MSRP and street).

The RED SCARLET-X lists for $9,750 and that is direct from RED: no discounts. However, that is a "brain only" price (though it comes with a SSD recording module, Canon lens mount, and AC adapter). After December 31st, in fact, the RED's prices will go up. But if you include the prices of the things you'll need to shoot in each cameras' most basic configuration, many all of these things are included with the Canon but not with the RED. (A couple of them are not included with the Canon either, where noted).

  • Camera Body
  • Lens Mount
  • Side Handle (RED +$950)
  • Viewfinder/Screen (RED's 5" LCD is $1,600, though it's probably nicer than the Canon's EVF)
  • Media Module
  • Media for 1 hour of footage (a cheap $100 CF card for the Canon, but two $950 SSDs for the RED)
  • Media Reader (a cheap $50 CF reader for the Canon, but a $250 REDMAG for the RED)
  • Battery Charger (an extra $150 for the RED, though I'm not clear on whether the included AC adapter can also charge batteries)
  • Batteries for a few hours of shooting (an extra $150 battery for the Canon, three $195 REDVOLTS for the RED)

This brings the RED up to an even $15k. As you get into more realistic battery and media numbers -- I included the absolute minimum above -- the SCARLET-X becomes more expensive than the C300. Which is to say nothing of the fact that the C300's 1080P MPEG-2 files require much less computer power to edit and process in post than do the 4K R3D files (thus more expense on the back-end for the RED). Plus, I'm betting the Canon will be better in low light situations, which makes your necessary lighting budget lower (though just because you can shoot without lights does not mean you should).

Finally, while some pointed out during yesterday's brouhaha that "the RED will be available sooner," that remains to be seen -- RED's November 17th (for the PL mount version) and December 1st (for the Canon mount) dates are for when the SCARLET-X starts shipping. RED's history is not one of shipping on time (not in any real quantity, at least), and on top of that some of the required accessories are backordered, so by the time you're able to get your hands on a full SCARLET-X kit, I'm betting the C300 will be shipping in volume.

Certainly by the time RED has all of the SCARLET-X features enabled -- including a basic ability like playing back the footage in-camera (yes, this is not currently possible with the $28,000 EPIC) -- you can bet the C300 will be out in the wild. I'm not second-guessing my decision to order a SCARLET-X, but let's not pretend that the RED will be ready to shoot for $10k on December 1st. For all intents and purposes, both of these cameras are $16k (without lenses), and both of them are shipping in 2012.

But only one of them's being used to shoot The Hobbit in 3D!

UPDATE: some of the comments here and elsewhere have caused me to write Why I'm Ordering a RED SCARLET-X, and How it Relates to My Feature 'Man-child.' Hopefully that clarifies things.

Your Comment

97 Comments

Where is this $28K EPIC constantly spoken of? It's $39,500 for the brain.

November 4, 2011

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JS

EPIC-M is the hand-machined version ($39K). The production EPIC-X has to date only been available for RED ONE owners and is $28K. It should be available to order for non RED ONE folks in the days to come, however.

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

You also need a lens for both, but maybe that goes without saying.

November 4, 2011

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jc

Mentioned in the post.

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Do you mean "lens mount"? I guess that was too technical for me :)

November 4, 2011

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jc

"both of these cameras are $16k (without lenses)"

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Again, the scarlet is NOT 16k with The "must have" components. You're lookin at around 23k to be ready to actually shoot something with the tools needed to be functional on a set. I'm so confused on why nobody is talking about the REAL cost of the scarlet. Especially the cost to those who own zero products from Red and are starting from scratch. Get real people.

November 4, 2011

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James

What's the difference from the AI Canon mount and the TI Canon Mount?

November 4, 2011

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Julian

i'm assuming aluminum vs titanium.

November 4, 2011

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Chris Hubbard

"aluminium" heh heh

November 4, 2011

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with all that been said do you regret placing an order.. honestly bro? am worried because i shoot weddings on DSLR's and need whats between 2-6 hours worth of footage wich will cost $$$ the reason am saying this because am hoping that there will be some cf card adapter or a cheap external device like the ninja and its big brother for the red scarlet, don't you think so? =) thanks in advance

November 4, 2011

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I wouldn't shoot weddings on a RED. RED requires a lot of post time and is really designed for feature filmmaking. The Sony and Canon solutions give you a datarate and aesthetic that requires less tweaking in post, so I'd go with the FS100 or F3 probably...

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Red doesn't need to have a lot of post time. Just load your looks into the camera before hand, then drag and drop into Premiere CS5.5

Or you can use Redcine X to convert everything to pro res overnight.

There are options out there. Though if you need quick turnaround times, a rocket is nice but not required.

November 4, 2011

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Still, it would be pointless to shoot a wedding home video with a 4K cinema camera.

November 4, 2011

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Travis

Yeah considering the near 50% failure rate of marriages!

November 4, 2011

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HowardG

A ki pro mini or pix 240 will give you a faster workflow than your 5d

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Emanuel

Koo,

Did you factor the cost for doing "post"? The edit bay required needs to be a monster to handle 4k. The Red Rocket card is almost $5,000.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Chris

November 4, 2011

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It does have to be a monster. I'm looking at this as a (very) long-term investment, for projects beyond "Man-child," and not just for my own projects. And I'll start off as cheaply as possible, adding on as I can (and for something like MC, it'll hopefully be posted at a better facility than whatever I can afford to own). Even if the cost of their entry-level brain has come down a lot, all of the other prices of the RED ecosystem are still the same!

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

There are options around that. I plan to use my scarlet x on web productions and I'm gonna use a pix 240 to get 10 bit proress 422 and audio, that will be able to be edited instantly. A scarlet plus a pix240 is in the same price range as a f3 with slog, and with the scarlet if you wanna go higher end, it can do 4k, log, raw, same price range

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Emanuel

Yes absolutely!

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

November 4, 2011

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RebelPhoton

That's great to see, thanks!

November 5, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Koo Red says in their faqs that the scarlet has playback out of the box

November 4, 2011

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George

True. But it's not working on the EPIC yet so until then...

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

But wait a second - Both cameras are just tools, guys..... WHAMMY! #Okaynownoonecansaythat

November 4, 2011

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RevBenjamin

Ha! We should start a campaign of spamming this everywhere so people stop feeling the need to say it...

November 4, 2011

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Luke

Yeah, why do people keep saying that? I mean it's not like you can *rent* equipment or anything, right?

November 4, 2011

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Jacques E. Bouchard

What's that got to do with people endlessly reminding everyone that it's just a tool?

November 4, 2011

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Luke

IMO the important thing here is that yes, in reality the prices are going to be similar, but in three years, which camera are you going to still be using, upgrading, pushing the envelope with? Cos it sure as hell isn't going to be the Canon. You can upgrade to an external recorder to get round the 8bit codec, but past that... it's already maxed out. It'll work great out of the box, but it's so painfully limited from what I can see. Much better to spend the same, or slightly more, on something which gives you room to maneuver. As someone else said somewhere else (can't remember who or where), the Canon smacks of planned obsolescence.

November 4, 2011

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Luke

As far a usability goes, I don't think the C300 will be completely obsolete. 1080 will be a consumer delivery standard for at least 4-5 more years. All consumer televisions are no higher than 1080 & consumer dvd players are no higher than 1080. There is no rush from manufactures to go higher than that any time soon. They're all focused on 3D & refresh rates. Any other upgrades to the camera functionality may simply come by way of software/firmware upgrades to change data manipulation like codecs, & FPS

November 4, 2011

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They will sell so few of these C300s it will be more of a museum piece than obsolete. I doubt I'll ever see one in the flesh.

Who would buy this camera? Who could fail to be at least a little influenced by the plethora of criticisms on the web? Nobody wants to buy a camera that everybody thinks is a rip off for complete suckers, for $16K. Nobody!

November 4, 2011

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Lucas Adamson

One area I agree with you on is the price. Even if it's 16k, it seems overpriced for what it does(or what it doesn't do). This cam should be no more than 10k. Although I think it will still sell, the Scarlet will definitely affect how much it sells depending on Red's ability to keep up with demand. I was just reading the C300 specs and there is nothing that really stood out to me spec wise although I do appreciate the ability to use cheap media. I'll still hold final judgment until the test results are out between the Scarlet & C300.

November 5, 2011

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I am so wondering on the EOSHD post. Why would he feel entitled to say things like that? I am... We all are on a spiritual path really, What does it take really to make a movie? We all are conflicted to what is a " movie" in our head and some people don't understand that we need to take decisions according to our belief. We discuss hardware because we filmmakers, are anticipating what we have in our head.

Would he be upset if I have told him that I see my movies being shot with a flip cam and a bunch of kodak playsport? He might have just thought that I am not taking myself seriously! (and I am using flip cams...)

But here is the reality, he called on his blog on you spending money on a red: He is not taking Koo seriously.

The legitimacy of eoshd is seriously compromised, why can't he see your commitment to deliver a "movie", regardless of how you "see" your movie? I cannot understand. His post has such a foul smell in the end, the beginning was great, but the end: here:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/5166/what-expensive-camera-obsessions-are-d...

How can a human being be so narrow. I really don't know. But here is the thing, if koo had delivered a sub par "movie" I would have been reading his post with no emotions at all, but to be be entitled to an opinion at this stage is to really be a very interesting guy...

In the end, it really just feels that eoshd is a high quality mental masturbation on everything between a lens and the filmmaker but not really in the path it takes to make a movie. He did not wait for the result, jump to conclusion, I feel cheated somehow by eoshd. Good thing that I did not even bother login on his website, he is not even worth my 2 cents.

From a guy on a mission.

November 4, 2011

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Franklin

I liked what he was saying there, minus the veiled criticism of Koo for buying RED. I don't think he meant it as a real criticism of Koo, and I think he genuinely wishes him luck. He probably shouldn't have mentioned it though.

Personally I can FULLY understand why Koo is buying a RED, and if I was about to make my first feature and had the money, I would do nothing less. It's for the rest of us, the ones still making shorts in order to try to get in a position where we might one day make a feature, that Andrew Reid's remarks are very very true. The GH2 is plenty good enough for any wannabe filmmaker to prove him/her self. Hell, the DVX100b probably is fine too!

November 4, 2011

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Lucas Adamson

Mind you, it's rich for EOSHD.com to start saying that the "camera is only a tool" just when Canon release a bunch of overpriced crap, and are utterly humiliated by the upstarts, RED. Of course the camera is only a tool - goes without saying! So, we should buy the C300, cause, who cares about quality?

November 4, 2011

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Lucas Adamson

Ordered a Scarlet package immediately. Total no-brainer.
But keeping the EX1 and EX3 for quick and dirty shoots.
The Canon camera is a joke. 1080p, seriously? 60fps in 720p?
You need to compare much more than just the simply stuff imho. Your comparison lacks all the detail that makes the Scarlet stand out by miles.

November 4, 2011

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Jakob, I'm pretty sure that this post was at least partly motivated by a desire to be strictly impartial. There are those who see any disagreement with themselves as being "bias", and some of the comments on the previous article show that. More than that, comments on the EOSHD article... Point being, the previous article makes it pretty clear that Koo agrees with you, and while I don't feel it was in any sense biased or even un-objective, it makes sense for him to play it safe with this article!

November 4, 2011

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Luke

With an external recorder like the pix240 or atmos ninja, don't you lose the ability to record in resolutions higher than 1080?

Is it a viable alternative to RED SSD's? Because that would save not only money on media, but time in post as well.

November 4, 2011

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Michael Soomon

I wouldn't say its an alternative, the optimal situation is using them in unison for offline and online files. But if you have a internet output it would be a viable replacement recording format

November 4, 2011

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Ryan Emanuel

The more I think about his post, the more I see the picture of a man that understand the principle of filmmaking but don't follow it in his personal life. He is not mad at you (koo) to buy a camcorder, he is mad at himself to not have the passion (the balls really) to create a kickstarter project ask 120k$ and spend his personal money on a red to make a movie. This is the illustration of commitment, dedication, and perseverance regardless of Man Child narrative quality.

Which means two things, his post "What expensive camera obsessions are doing for filmmaking" might hold a figment of truth in the first part, the second is just a tangent on his perception of other filmmakers. So low. So low eoshd.

November 4, 2011

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Franklin

Hey Franklin,

I don't know if you've follow EOSHD's blog for a while but he's always been pretty strong worded about stuff her doesn't agree with and very anti-anything more expensive than prosumer. That said, he does back up the talk by focusing heavily on cost-effective solutions (better coverage and tests of GH2 hack and NEX 5n than anybody.) He might be infuriating from time to time but I definitely think the DSLR filmmaking community is better with a hothead that focuses on creative cheap hacks than it would be without one.

And honestly, I could give a shit what these guys think about each other. I'm happy to read their content, learn what I can and decide what's best for my projects on my own.

November 4, 2011

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Carlos

+1

November 4, 2011

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Just to be sure, the Scarlet specs are way bette,r right ?
resolution, data rates, frame rates, dynamic range... Is it correct ?

November 4, 2011

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Stephane

in the end, for me, it all comes down to the image produced by the camera. i will sacrifice functionality, features, and even resolution to be able to achieve the look i am striving for.
based on the things that i have seen shot on red and the things that i have seen shot on alexa, i find that i prefer the alexa. alot of that has to do with the dynamic range and color reproduction.
the canon appears to sacrifice resolution for the sake color. it's very possible that the c300 could wind-up rendering a more pleasing image then the red.
all i've seen of the c300 so far is Vincent Laforet's film, but it is very promising. and based on his write-up where he mentions the low-light capability and the organic film-like grain of the c300, i am not counting it out.
the red footage i see often still looks too plastic and digital for my taste. the c300 may end up rendering more organic and natural images, even if the resolution makes them more 16mm than 35mm, that's ok with me.

November 4, 2011

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guy

I don't know where you guys are sitting, but in my world, budgets are getting tighter and tighter all the time. For me, it comes down to basic math: I would not be able to recoup my investment in a $20k camera before it needed to be replaced.

I recently went through the same issue with my studio space. It was cool and all, but it cost me $15k per year for rent and utilities, and I only had maybe $3,000 work of work that required it. It just didn't make economic sense.

The same goes for these cameras: As Koo said, they are for feature filmmaking. If 99% of your clients can't tell the difference between footage shot on a RED and footage shot on an AF100 or 5D Mk II, there's no reason to go into debt for the camera that's 10x the cost.

November 4, 2011

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great post koo!

November 4, 2011

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Koo! This is my first comment on your site. Sweeet~

Hate to say it, but after waking up and checking my Epic footage (some of it at 2K, 3K, most at 5K)--

This Scarlet release isn't as impressive as it was ten hours ago. I'm in a different boat: I shoot EPIC already, don't have to own a camera, so can be a bit more objective about it.

Scarlet's only advantage, as far as image goes, is being able to shoot 4K @ 30P. The data-rate of 50mb/s should see RED MX footage. That's all well and good.

However, below 4K is going to look unsettling unpleasant, coupled with the sensor crop and further lens anomalies that show up when doing so makes it a bit of a curious thing.

Face Value: Hey we can shoot 4K @ 30P, and we have the option to go to 120@1K

Real World: This camera is basically a 2K @ 30P competitor because of the capped data rate, sensor crop, etc.

I will say this, though-- The marketings gonna make those who don't own a Scarlet wish they had next year. Until the smoke and mirrors vanish and people see that it doesn't really hold up to the real deal (EPIC-X) or adjacent offerings (C300 Dynamic Range and Lowlight cleanliness).

What a great and fun day for cam announcements that was.

November 4, 2011

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I think the main selling point of the SCARLET is 4K @24FPS. That's going to be most of what I plan on shooting. It also does 1080p at 60FPS (which is also better than the Canon or Sony). And if you have a shoot where you need higher framerates... you can always rent an EPIC and use the SCARLET as a perfectly-matched B cam.

November 5, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Thanks Koo. I find your posts to be informative and unbiased. As a backer of Man Child, I look forward to seeing the few frames I financed shot with the Scarlet-X. I haven't been a fan of RED in general due to the "forever beta" nature of their products, but I think you bought the right tool for the job here. There is no "One Camera to Rule Them All", but as filmmakers we have to keep track of which hammer is best suited to drive our nails.

November 4, 2011

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To me RED now completely jumped shipped into the Pro realm. Scarlet fixed 2/3 was going to be the killer solution for Indies, for people starting out, for run & gun. Granted, like Khli points out, if you are renting, well you are renting. But as other posters point out owning killer cameras is now becoming a reality. But the systems RED offers totally outshine the competition. I'm sad to see the Fixed 2/3 Scarlet go - it would have been a killer investment - not enough to break your budget - cheap enough to afford a full kit at around 10k, familiarize with the red system and rent the bigger kits when you need to. And a camera for now, not the future. So Scarlet 2/3 was a dream for the small fry. S-X is for pros.

November 4, 2011

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Matt

On a side note, Im totally going dumpster diving at Red studios for the fixed 2/3 scarlet haha.

November 4, 2011

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Robert

Whatever happened to film??

November 4, 2011

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Dan

Interesting analysis. Here are my thoughts about these camneras:

http://paul-d.tv/blog/2011/11/04/the-night-of-the-long-camera-announceme...

November 4, 2011

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Because of RED's move, these C300s will be sitting on shelves waiting to be purchased. I have no doubt that if we wait a few months, they'll really come down in price just to move them (and get on to the next line of their cinema cameras). Canon made sure to let us know that this is only the first of many, so they'll probably want to trump RED here sooner than later.

November 4, 2011

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Does anyone remember the Canon XL-1? It was supposed to revolutionize filmmaking and do away with the high cost of film cameras. I think it cost about $5K - it even had removable lenses! Supposedly, you could get low DOF with it, although Soderberg's stuff always looked wayyy better than mine.. It ALSO had a janky-assed XLR adaptor thingy-bob instead of pro-jacks directly on the body. It was obsolete pretty damn fast, initially by Canon with the XL1S and then by a slew of other camcorders. Carrying it around was somewhat akin to shouldering a giant pregnant spider. I was really reminded of that by looking at the goofy-looking C300 on a redrock micro rig in GoForJared's photos.
Anyhoo, technology marches on and people keep blowing mad cash on the "Hollywood killer" cameras. Meanwhile, There are literally 5 RED cameras in my small town, and noone has the budget to rent them, and their owners have yet to recoup the cost of their $1000 handles. iIn fact they don't even have 4K lenses on them, just a smattering of Canon L glass (which doesn't rate 4K). People should save their money and spend some $$ on story.
Just my perspective - noone is throwing me hundreds of thousands of dollars for cinema, but I'll keep muddling on with my selection of jerry-rigged APS-C DSLRs and maybe I'll buy an NEX in the next few months so that I can overcome the 22 minute runtime cap and overheats. (Really bites during interviews!) I'm pretty happy with a nice clean 8bit image and an affordable and capable workflow to go with it. When I need greenscreen, I know that BlackMagic Design has my back capturing uncompressed out the HDMI port.

November 4, 2011

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It's like X-Box 360 versus Playstation 3 around here, only for cameras. I could care less whether C300 beats RED or vice versa.

I'm more interested in the Canon DSLRs that have not been released yet, since I can actually afford to buy them.

Red (finally) takes the wraps off new camera - Scarlet-X
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mcurtis/story/red_finally_takes_t...

November 5, 2011

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moebius22

If the 1d x is 7 grand what makes u think be able to afford the new 4k dslr

November 5, 2011

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George

I'm waiting to see what the Mark iii offers. The 4k dslr Canon is more a matter of curiosity at this point since it lacks a price point. If it is more than the 1dx, than I am not interested.

November 5, 2011

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moebius22

Canon released an hd cameras for 16000, your nuts if you think their 4k camera is gonna be under 7 grand, the other big dog sony's 4k camera is 85k! your waiting for nothing

November 5, 2011

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george

Aggressive posters who are out to slam other posters often have the habit of putting words in other posters mouths.

So I will say AGAIN, that I'm talking about the Mark 3, which is what I'm mainly interested in. If the new 4k camera is more than the 1dx (which it could be) then I'm not interested.

You understand now George?

November 5, 2011

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moebius22

Having read so much discussion about your Red choice, Eoshd's typically response whoring position, and the C300 vs Red debate, I simply wanted to offer my support.

For you, and not for everyone, the Red Scarlett makes absolute sense. Owning a camera of that quality, and features, something Fincher, Cameron, etc would use, for a measly $10 grand (even if it it comes nearer $20 grand after accessories) is a no brainer.

Even if you used kickstarter money, it would be wise, but you're not, you're for footing the bill from your own pocket. It's really the only choice.

I am baffled by any negativity you receive. You are a filmmaker, and becoming a high profile one at that. When you planned to rent a Red, no one took issue.

Now you'll have one, to learn, know inside out, and you will get better results from being able to test it, learn it, and be able to get the best from it, which will only make Manchild better.

I am not sure of the exact numbers, but I guess that buying a Scarlett will be less than hire price for a full shoot on Epic. Again, no brainer. This is your passion, it's what you do, and why anyone would question you, is beyond me.

It's less than a small car for pity's sake. Do people have a go at you when you buy a new car?

Power to you Koo, you've done what most of us only talk about, and if I were you, I would have gone Red in a heart beat given Scarlett's awesome 2011 rebirth. I wish I was you and about go start that journey, but I have some ways to go yet :-)

For full disclosure, I am a pro photographer who loves Canon stills, has lots of L glass and was gutted at the complete disappointment that was the C300. Well, the price and specs anyway. It's a good camcorder in 2011, no more.

3 years I waited for it, defending Canon against the Nikon crowd, and then big mouth with money from sunglasses embarrassed my chosen platform, and not just by a small margin :-) Good on ya Jannard. Kudos!

60fps at 720? My Gh2 does that, as did my Ex 1, in 2007 when the world was a very different place.

Very poor Canon, very, very poor.

1080 at 60 fps and $10,000, low light to die for, ef support, and a killer sensor and we are talking something very usable, but $20,000, no raw and no 720p 60fps? Not going to happen in 2011. Who runs Canons market research for pity's sake?

They think anyone will buy this? Fs 100 and adapter anyone?

The C300 has no audience. Hollywood need more, and are willing to pay for it. Indies need more in 2011 and Red now have them covered. Wedding photographers need more, and Sony have them covered with the FS100.

Prosumers can use the Gh2. Who needs a $20,000 C300? L glass is great, I have a lot of it, but it's not parafocal it's not cinema, etc, etc but for a $3 grand mk2, we can work around that. No worries.

For $20,000? Well, we might as well step up and stop worrying about the glass we've invested in, as we are in a whole new ball game.

Having spent 16 years in advertising (before photography) I can't think of anyone who would buy the C300 if I was asked to produce advertising for it. Vincent and Philip will get one for free and rave. It is awesome. At $5-10 grand. I'd pre order now and rave.

But $20,000. Nope. it's 3 years out of date. The world needed this a year after the mk2, not 3 years.

You waited for Nov 3rd and you went Red Koo. Of course. Who with a brain wouldn't?

Really, what do we have in the C300? Xlr? 50 meg 4.2.2? That's good, but not $20 grand good. Low light? Hopefully that is awesome, but really what is expected now, when you look at the wonderful Nikon D3s.

We wanted full frame 35mm to get the best from our L glass, crop modes for longer dof when needed, 1080 from the centre of the sensor for long zooms. We needed frame rates up to 120, all at 1080p, 60fps at a push. We needed intraframe 422, we needed 100 Meg GOP 422, and 300 mps 444 if our dreams were being listened to at Canon.

Digic 3v on a $20 grand cam? Are they insane when the $7 grand 1dx has twin Digic 5+ AND a digit 4 just for focus?

Bottom line? Canons video dept, need to have lunch with their stills dept once a week to avoid disasters like this :-)

I literally could not believe my eyes when I read the spec of the C300. Oh, dear. My beloved Canon. Oh how I envagalised you to death, then you do this to me? Oh, how we were in the old days when you had my back, and i had yours :-)

When I saw the C300 I wanted send Canon a copy of the dictionary with the definition of "historic" underlined :-) Canon don't listen, maybe they never did. I am 100% sure of that now. I sensed that when I went to Gh 2 for video and saw the side by side mk2/gh2 tests I did for my modest projects. Wow, is that what 1080 SHOULD look like I thought. Kudos Panasonic.

I don't have the need for Scarlett yet, but Red blew me away with it, and I am 110% sure you will not have buyers regret Koo.

Sure, I love Fincher on general principle, I think he's a genius, but even so, the idea of having the chip he shot Social Network with (Oscar nominated), and Girl with... for under $10 grand? Blows me away.

Too long a post I know, apologies for that. 3 years of disappointment to get off my chest I'm afraid :-)

Pre ordered my now 3 year old mk2, and currently am looking at all the pretenders with jealous eyes (Nikon (lowlight stills), Sony, Panasonic video) and wondering how the best dslr video news Canon have in their 'historic' announcement is "we are working on an Eos Cinema thingy. No date. No specs, but trust us. You were stupid enough to wait three years before, why not a little longer now:-)" tell that to my clients.

2011? The iPhone doesn't have moire and alaising, why does my expensive Canon dslr :-)

November 5, 2011

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Great thoughts, agree with all of them. Thanks! And yes, I think the C300 is a perfectly capable camcorder. But for $20k in 2011, I believe (as you do) that they missed the mark. Upcoming post about it though you pretty much covered the bases!

November 5, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

It's quite amazing the furore going on over at EOSHD over you.

Reading many of the posts you would think that Ryan Koo had invaded Poland, not just bought a business tool to make a film.

One of the most bizarre showing of Internet sheep ignorance I have ever witnessed. I hope it's not distracting you from more positive things in life.

November 6, 2011

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I read the first few dozen comments, then lost track. I have a movie to make, after all....

November 9, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

actually, I'm surprised the blog posts are not loosing pace, and you're still engaged in the comments sections

good for you, but I wouldn't mind reading about scarlet and c300 elsewhere, and understand you must be really really busy right now (and for the coming months), so it would be fine for me if the blog lost some steam, as long as you keep posting about the stuff we can't easily find elsewhere (the crowdfunding post from today) and about MC preproduction

November 9, 2011

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Again, more support here. I've been attacked online myself more than once, mostly when I was primarily into stills photography. I basically got run out of Flickr, where I was active on a few discussion groups, and even off the Luminous Landscape forums. I think part of it is being female, which disqualifies me from being a serious photographer because, um, breasts? (That was pretty much the gist of the final straw that led me to walk away from that forum). On Flickr, the guy who hounded me until I gave up and left basically seemed to have a problem because I had a better camera than him (I was using a digital medium format system with a monochrome-only back, and a 4x5 view camera system with a 150 megapixel scanning back, whereas he was using some prosumer DSLR or other). People can get really out of shape about that kind of thing. I find it very strange, I've never really got it myself. My own move toward film making and away from stills photography was partly motivated by just how nasty people seemed to be around stills, with it being extremely cut throat actually trying to get somewhere. In the movie world there does seem to be a little more default respect for what we do, though (as you unfortunately found) there are always people who are going to behave like a jerk if you upset the pecking order without permission.

Being realistic, you got a movie funded. A feature, no less, with funding through Kickstarter. More indie than indie, really -- you didn't 'work your way up', you found the side entrance and just went and did it. All power to you, and best of luck. I very much look forward to seeing the results! I'm also working toward my own first feature, which will be near-zero budget -- I'll be writing and directing and doing pretty much everything not in front of the camera myself. Coming in from fine art photography I can handle the DP stuff, and I'm a former professional sound engineer (music business rather than movies, but hey, close enough), and am capable of doing my own CGI and compositing. I'll probably get some trouble for having the audacity to attempt all of that myself, but, *shrug*, whatever -- if the movie sucks, *then* and only then does anyone have anything valid to say, in my not so humble opinion. Good luck, and go for it!

November 10, 2011

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Good luck, but filmmaking is a totally different art form to photography (time, movement, sound, rhythm, editing); don't be fooled into thinking you are ready because you did fine art photography!

November 14, 2011

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Alex

Dear Dean Agar(i wrote this just coz it rhymes),
I hate long posts except when they say something important like this one obviously does.

I agree with you on all your observations but your last one strikes me as most important; the fact that the iphone has no moire and aliasing! I would have preferred that Canon announce groundbreaking news like "we have managed to eliminate jello from dslr footage". That would have been groundbreaking newsworthy!

November 11, 2011

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Waweraw

I dont think Red brought a bazooka to a knife fight, they fronted an Apache gunship to a hot air balloon race.

November 5, 2011

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For Red to put an EOS mount on the front was pure genius. If you already own a bunch of EOS lenses ( admittedly with their follow focus issues) you will be able to access a full RED set up for $15,000. Admittedly there is the back end data processing issues but computers are getting faster and cheaper by the minute. This is a camera to own and will see you throught the next 5 years of production ( at 4K if you choose or with 2K and decent slow motion) That's $3,000 a year for a 4K camera? Love to hear what other think.

mdjsalter@aol.com

November 5, 2011

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martin salter

Lets not forget, with the RED if you need to raise some extra money you can always market yourself as having the highest quality photo studio in town as well lol. Since the RED shoots stills and 4k video you can get come interesting shots that would be hard for a traditional photographer.

You can shoot your movies and make some side income with the still function, especially with sports, marital arts, and dance. You can take a frame grab from the video and the give the person a ton of options on which shot they like.

November 5, 2011

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pixel wiz

My background is in still photography with over 16 years of experience but I am trying to make a transition into the film world. Last year I had my first job as DP for the critically acclaimed award winning "Absentia" www.absentiamovie.com which I shot on the 5D2 using all my Canon L primes. I have the L zooms also but prefer to shoot with the primes just like everyone else.

I was lucky enough to get to go to the Scarlet announcement at RED Studios. I would of ordered the camera right there and then if I didn't have a wife and kids. I am really hoping in 2012 as money starts to come in from "Absentia" being on NetFlix, Showtime, VOD, and in stores throughout the world I can make a professional camera purchase. Even though I love Canon, I love RED even more for how they continue to improve their products long after shipping and build their cameras with the idea of upgrades down the road.

I am really looking forward to seeing real world tests from both the C300 and Scarlet. But based on my thoughts on RED I am 99% when I make a big camera purchase it will be a RED.

November 5, 2011

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Has the smoke cleared yet?

Healthy debate about camera specs, RED vs Canon etc is all good but though I'm not surprised by EOSHDs response I am still disgusted by his accusations and his refusal to even edit out errors in his piece.

Koo, I don't consider you an "aspiring filmmaker" - you've made a features+ worth of narrative content already with your (award winning no less!) web series. Well before your Kickstarter campaign for "Man Child" and even this site you were a filmmaker. Which is more than can be said for Andrew at EOS who still insists on shooting boring abstract views of buildings and bridges etc. and has the gall to charge people for his highly questionable anamorphic shooting guide when others offer advice for gratis.

That being said, as a supporter of "Man Child" I am confused by your decision to invest in a Scarlet and would appreciate some clarification. I was under the impression that you were the writer/director of the film not the DP as well. Are you going the Robert Rodriguez route and are going to try and do everything?

Now, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this. However, why make an already difficult job that much harder? Why not just focus on being a great writer/director? There's a reason these jobs are split on more ambitious films. On a short its fine. Everyone is learning and the expectation is not to make money with a short but to have a calling card. I've made shorts where I was writer/director/producer/DP/editor and it was a lot of work and I probably spread myself too thin creatively in some areas and hurt the end product. On other productions (those with a higher budget) I was extremely grateful to have others fill those roles so I could focus on doing the best job as a director.

You will only ever have one "First Feature". It's important that you line up the ducks and stack the deck as best you can. Maybe that means hiring a story consultant to ensure the script is as good as it can be. Maybe that means spending some $$$ on a great Casting Director that has access to top acting talent. Maybe that means investing on a Sales Agent to help get the film sold when its done.

You've demonstrated that you have great talent as a filmmaker and your generosity and openness to share your knowledge on this site also shows you to be a solid individual who is without ego and thats refreshing in this business. I have no doubt you'll give "Man Child" every ounce of effort you have but am curious as to where you see your career going. Where do you want to be in 5yrs? Do you want to be a Writer-Director? A DP? An Editor? A Producer? All of the above?

November 5, 2011

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Neil

Not planning on DPing it myself! I hear your concerns and am writing a post about it right now. You're on point with all of these thoughts, and thank you for supporting Man-child!

November 5, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Look forward to reading the post Koo.

I get the gear bug. I'm a geek who often has the "oooh! Shiny new thing!" condition. As a filmmaker its great that there are cheap tools available to play around with. I've been lucky enough to have worked with pretty much every camera system in the world from old 35mm Mitchell's, Aaton, Arri, Panaflex, Movicam etc. from when I was a camera assistant. In the late 90s I shot several shorts on Mini-DV and now have a DSLR - they're great for experimenting on and stretching those creative muscles. Better to get those hard lessons on axis and screen direction etc. in a no-budget scenario with a 1 to 5 person crew than on a $1000 a minute feature with 100+ people standing around rolling their eyes! :)

If I had the cash would I buy a Scarlet (or similar)? Sure. I'd also go on a vacation, eat at better restaurants, drive a better car and live somewhere nicer.

At the end of the day its about doing what you need to do to get ahead and, more importantly, continue to pursue your passion. Sacrifices need to be made but are still no guarantee of success thats for sure. I'm just grateful that after 15+ yrs I'm still making a living in film and have never had to get another job.

Keep up the good work Koo and don't let the naysayers get to you.

November 5, 2011

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Neil

Has anyone seen footage from Scarlet yet? If so, please post a link.

November 5, 2011

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Granville

Look for any EPIC footage. Same body, same sensor, same dynamic range... lower frame rates and 4K instead of 5K at 24fps.

November 5, 2011

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

Have a look at: "RED Epic verus Panasonic GH2" http://vimeo.com/30751603

Image quality/resolution out of the GH2 looks better! Read Philip Coltart's comments about what he thinks after using both cameras.

November 10, 2011

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skeptikal

Are you really surprised by aggressive posts when you post that you could care less about the two cameras this thread is about. Really?

Plus even if when the 5d mark iii comes out, which if it does will be in the far wake of the 1dx, and its actually in your price range, which I'm assuming is sub 5000, its specs as a dslr and not camcorder will not be able to compete with the video functionality and picture of a fs100 or af100 with a sub 5000 price tag, especially not if the 1d can't at 7 grand.

People who can't afford the new way of digital cinema cameras and who are clinging onto 5d's for dear life have the habit of posting on threads that have absolutely nothing to do with them.

I think I understand you pretty good.

November 5, 2011

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george

Well George, not everyone needs a camcorder like an af110 or fs100 - my school already has af100s. You don't even know what I'm shooting or using the camera for, yet you are jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about price points.

I also understand you as well. You somehow have such a chip on your shoulder, that you go on a rampage when someone doesn't feel they have to purchase a certain piece of equipment. Somehow the equipment you work on is wrapped up in your ego.

I will post the words of of a DP Philip Bloom, "…one last thing…does all these cameras coming out mean you cannot shoot on your 60D, 5Dmkii, 7D, Gh2? NONSENSE…They are just tools. Expensive ones. Me? I shoot with the right camera for the right job and sometimes that may just be a $500 stills camera!! Trust me…owning one of these new cameras is not going to suddenly going to make your work better! Use what you have!!

Oh and by the way. I ordered a Scarlet."

November 5, 2011

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moebius22

"My school has a af100" Classic. I didn't know I was arguing with a film student. I feel foolish now. Good luck kid.

November 7, 2011

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George

Sweet Hobbit clip!

November 6, 2011

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That 2k@60 is a cropped spec, though. So less than 2/3" fov. And at 50mb/s cap it's going to look more like upscaled 720.

When Scarlet users see that anything below 4K is going to be pretty underwhelming it'll be a weird day.

Then again, 4k at 30 wil look close to MX footage so.

November 6, 2011

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good post. Red overall won for indie filmmakers, but it is definitely not half the price. 1000 dollars for 64GB is pretty ridiculous, having shot with a company with red this adds up really fast. I think C300 will be popular with news companies though, they don't want 4K or raw, they want reliability and the best 1080 video they can get...maybe some mobility too. Red wins but it's not a landslide since the price will be the same, and the C300 will be better suited to some peoples' needs

November 6, 2011

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You realize 50mb is a huge codec right? Don't confuse megabits with megabytes

November 7, 2011

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George

Kholi - You do realize that the "cap" on the Scarlet is 55 MB/sec - not mbps; that's megaBYTES, not megaBITS - roughly 8x more. Also - the Scarlet-X won't look "close to" MX footage but the same as. They are exactly the same sensor - the ASICs in the Scarlet are just less capable of processing the signal, hence, the lower frame rates.

November 10, 2011

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Terry

just wanted to note that with the F3, you really need the upgrade to 4:4:4 to have a camera that is in the same ballpark as the other two. so a full blown package of the three cameras w/ EVF, LCD, battery, and charger is about $2160 (street) for the F3, $18715 for the Scarlet, and (list) $20,360 for the Canon, obviously significantly less once we know the street price. but basically all around the same price, give or take $1500.

just finished typing up a list comparing the specs of the three:
http://idisk.mac.com/ressler-Public/largeformathd10k.pdf

November 10, 2011

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Scott

Peter's gaining some weight

November 10, 2011

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If I was ready to go right now with my first feature since film school? I'd go with the SCARLET. After seeing the specs on that canon crap. Scarlet all the way. There also isn't a damn thing wrong with doing it all, Koo. I'd prefer not to...but like Rodriguez always said -- if you have the creative, artistic talent...it's easier to learn the tech side. And the minute you start farming out work to others; and your crew grows and the costs along with it all...you end up with more problems. Unless you have the budget. Nolan did his first short film on weekends; over the course of many, many months. With a small crew and basically because he had no money. He went against the so called system. That movie led him to eventually get a indie project going called MEMENTO, which led to you know what. Do what you gotta do. looks like SCARLET is the way. Can't wait to use it.

November 10, 2011

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MARK GEORGEFF

I don't understand all this blabla and rage about those new cameras.
If we are all talking about feature films that are going to be shown in theaters, ONE shooting day including actors, crew, lighting, grip, production,... is usually more expensive than a Scarlet or a CS 300. If we are not talking about movie shown in a theater on a 4K projector, who give a shit about 4K, 2K or even HD.
So which serious production company would take the risk to plan a shoot with one camera? what if it breaks ? you are going to run to the shop to buy a new one? or ask everybody to come back tomorrow for free?
95% of movie are shot with rental equipment, NOT because they can't afford to buy a RED or a ARRI, just because with rental if you have technical issues or if it's broken, you give a phone call and you have another one ready in a few hours, also because you have insurance included in the price. Technology goes so fast nowadays that by the time you finish to edit your movie there will be another, camera out, etc....
Directors buying cameras for their feature movie? Is this a new trend? Don't they have anything else to do than worry about the RED versus Canon "war". What about their next movie are they 100% sure they will use the same equipment? What if their DP prefers the looks of the MX or the Alexa?
Yes, I know, not everybody get's 30 million dollars budgets, but even with the smallest productions I worked for/with the director NEVER worried about what brand they were shooting with. They had shit loads of other stuff to worry about.
To all the tech experts, maybe after all the advices to Canon ( 45 billions $ revenue per year - 200 000 employees) you can also start giving advices to ARRI, after all the ALEXA only shoots 2K and it's worth 80 000€. And don't forget to have a go at Steven Soderbergh, he was shooting with an XL2 when he could buy an ARRI per day with the budget he had for " Full Frontal".
I'm not criticizing Koo for buying his camera, I just think it's pretty unusual in the movie business and more importantly what he will shoot with, will only be a very very small technical " detail" of the movie. I hope most people will love his movie for other reason than the fact it was shot with this or that.
Good luck to him and have fun doing what you love.

November 11, 2011

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Renaud

it's a side effect of the consumerization/democratization of film. smaller, cheaper digital cameras that are affordable compared to their 80k+ traditional counterparts get covered on film blogs and you see a new breed of prosumer owner-operators getting them, being fanboys over them, and just turning film from a complicated, respected craft into a product-war cesspool.

November 1, 2012

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john jeffreys

I am between the RED and something else, the C300 best feature seems to be the ND filter.
What is on with the Scarlet? why can't we just use generic SSD drives that costs 1/6 of their SSD drives?
What is the audio connector?
Maybe I will have to settle for a FS100 after all.
If only Panasonic would do a C300 version of their GH2. ( that AF100 is thoughtless )

November 11, 2011

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TTTulio

can you shot 4k and record to samurai recorder out of the scarlet hdsdi output if clients want pro res files for smaller jobs

January 25, 2012

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You should be able to... people are using the Sound Devices Pix for exactly this purpose.

January 25, 2012

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Ryan Koo
Founder
Writer/Director

These are very cool cameras. Now we need to factor in the added cost of being able to see and evaluate 4K images! Even when we were only shooting 16mm film a couple decades ago back in film school, we were projecting our work on decent wall sized screens. A close-up shot of an actress was 15 feet tall. Now everything I see is measured in inches not feet, so I would like to start seeing 4K projectors from Sony that are affordable for consumers so that the 4K films we will be making will be viewable at a size to make 4K look like 4K is supposed to look for our audience.

November 1, 2012

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Rob

If not Sony, I hope that Apple will figure out this consumer 4K projector for us. They put an HD video camera in everyone's pocket or purse( iPhone), and have multiple screen sizes from iPhones, iPads, iMacs etc and created the "Cinema Display" so why not a 4K projector to fill in the gap for the lack of a huge screen in this selection? Wishful thinking of course...

November 1, 2012

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Rob

Alakazaam-information found, problem solved, thanks!

April 8, 2014

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