In a move that surely has absolutely nothing to do with Sony's new cameras, RED has announced price drops on the EPIC and SCARLET cameras. They haven't said exactly how much the prices will drop, but they will be sharing those details on October 31st November 1st -- which is again, completely coincidentally, the day after Sony will announce their new camera(s), speculated to be the F5 and F55. This is reminiscent of when RED announced the SCARLET the same night as the Canon C300 in that RED has clearly taken a class in Headline Stealing 101 -- and by going second, they get to make last-minute adjustments based on their competition (and by being a much smaller, more agile company they can pivot more quickly). They also recently shared some updates on their Dragon sensor.
Regarding the price cuts, CEO Jim Jannard had this to say (see the full post at that link):
Everything in the electronics world changes... usually for the better, cheaper and faster. EPIC just did.
We have learned how to make EPICs in quantity, lowered our assembly costs, found better suppliers and paid off our NRE. ((NRE stands for non-recurring engineering.))
That means we can continue to charge the same for an EPIC (and now make an obscene amount of profit) or lower the price.
Those of you that paid the initial price hopefully got your money's worth. It was the best price we could offer at the time. You rented your cameras. You used them to generate income by shooting projects.
The industry struggles how to handle it when technology gets better for cheaper. We just tell the truth.
We are ready to lower prices on EPIC.
So if you bought an EPIC did you lose? Only if you did not put your EPIC to work. These are professional tools. They need to work. That is your responsibility.
Is your EPIC still relevant? Absolutely. Can it be upgraded to Dragon? Yes. Is it frustrating that you paid $X and it will soon be sold for some percentage less than X? Yes. But this is the nature of electronics. It has been. It is. And it always will be.
If you bought an EPIC in the past 30 days... we will offer a credit towards accessories. That amount will be posted along with the new EPIC pricing. Nov. 1st is when it happens.
While Jim only mentioned the EPIC initially, when asked about SCARLET he later responded with "I would expect across the lineup." While this could only refer to EPIC-M and EPIC-M Monochrome, I'm interpreting it to also mean the Scarlet -- cheaper component prices apply to both, after all -- and will correct this post if we find otherwise.
In that initial thread, Jim is clearly doing some damage control to prevent current EPIC/SCARLET owners from feeling like they paid too much (although if you bought that recent SCARLET deal you should feel fine). So how do I feel as one of these SCARLET owners who paid full price (keeping in mind the price was initially lower before it went up)? Especially given I haven't had a chance to shoot that much with it? Am I re-thinking my somewhat controversial ordering of the camera a year ago? What about in regards to how rapidly the camera market is changing with new entrants like the Blackmagic Cinema Camera and the Sony FS700, would I buy something different today? No. Not at all. And this speaks to exactly what Jim's talking about -- a camera is an investment. It's not a matter of whether you feel good about it sitting in your closet, if you get to brag about your specs, if you like what it may be capable of in some hypothetical situation. It's a question of whether you use it, whether you rent it out, whether purchasing it has furthered your art/knowledge/career/life. I can answer yes to all of the latter, and in my case, I've been sub-renting my camera through the rental house Hello World Communications here in New York -- so even though my recent days have been spent writing in the coffee shop more shooting than on-set, the camera has been generating a return on the investment. It should be fully paid off by the time we start shooting MANCHILD. And a paid-off camera you own beats paying for a rental (I expect we will rent additional cameras, but one is better than none).
Plus, the SCARLET is upgradable. Some folks would argue that spending several thousand dollars on a new sensor equates to selling an old camera and buying a new one, but I personally like the idea of having the same workflow and tools work from one generation to the next. Plus I'm getting tired of the disposable nature of electronics -- I just bought the iPad 3 and assumed I'd be using the latest, greatest Apple tablet for a year, but then Apple released the iPad 4 a short seven months later. The train of progress marches on (so do mixed metaphors). RED cameras are made in the USA (though who knows how many of the reported 18,000 individual components that make up an EPIC are USA-sourced), and they're upgradeable, and those are things RED doesn't get enough credit for in my opinion. Which brings us to:
RED Dragon Delayed
Regarding the Dragon sensor upgrade, RED's Jarred Land had this to say:
We actually had to re-redesign our camera ASIC yet again to handle how good the sensor turned out in terms of latitude and noise floor.. so when it's upgrade time you guys will all be getting new ones of those as well dropped into your cameras.
That is also the reason we haven't committed to a Dragon-upgraded Scarlet yet.. we gotta wait to see how the new ASIC handles things.
There is some bad news in all this though.... Even though the sensor will be done by the end of the year as expected, and we will have some Dragon-Epic prototypes floating around we will share as best we can..... realistically you guys will need to wait a couple more more months until the new new ASICs come out of the oven to start the whole customer upgrade process.
To translate: as far as most of us are concerned, the RED Dragon sensor (pictured) will not be available to shoot with in the year of the dragon. If you're at the front of the line with EPIC-M #000XX you may in fact get the new sensor before February 10, 2013, when the Chinese zodiac switches to the year of the snake -- and there will surely be some Dragon sensors floating around in EPICs before then as far as the Finchers, Jacksons, and Soderberghs of the world are concerned -- but don't plan on getting upgraded until 2013.
To further translate: "ASIC" means application-specific integrated circuit. RED originally mentioned that SCARLET cameras would need some new boards/chips to handle the Dragon upgrade but it now appears that even EPIC cameras will also need new circuitry to go with the new sensor. RED says they're keeping the price of the upgrade at $6,000 for the EPIC even though it's a more involved and costly procedure (not to mention the considerable cost of developing a new ASIC... speaking of non-recurring engineering costs). The Dragon sensor is pumping out more data than they expected -- see Jarred's comments about "latitude" -- and so the required processing power goes up. For EPIC owners, this is certainly a good thing -- they're saying that you're getting a better upgrade for the same price. RED has not released any images from the Dragon sensor or dynamic range specifications yet, but when asked how the Dragon sensor compares to the Arri Alexa and Sony F65, Jarred responded with "Why do you think Jim has been so happy the last couple weeks?" So that's great for EPIC owners -- and shooters everywhere, as competition benefits all of us.
SCARLET and Dragon
However, this got me to thinking. If the Dragon upgrade is $6k for EPIC, and even the EPIC boards can't handle its output (at the current EPIC frame/data rates), what does this mean for SCARLET, whose upgrade was already going to be more expensive than the Dragon upgrade? Surely the upgrade is getting even more costly -- and considering RED was recently selling barely-used SCARLETs for $7k and is announcing a price drop on the regularly-priced ($12k with lens mount and SSD slot) SCARLET in a week, how could they make a SCARLET Dragon upgrade work? Wouldn't you be basically paying 100% the price of your camera for a sensor upgrade? Asked about the SCARLET Dragon upgrade (pre price-drop announcement), Jarred Land shared:
You will know by the end of the year for sure. We will make sure Scarlet owners have some way to get to Dragon.. We just don't know what that looks like yet, or how much it will cost, and just how much of the Dragon's fire we can squeeze into the Scarlet infrastructure.. There is a point with Scarlet where you replace so many internal bits that a brain upgrade becomes a more economical (for you) path. But we don't know that yet...
Warning: you are now entering the realm of pure speculation on my part. I've done this in the past and got that one right, so... why not?
As far as the Dragon upgrade is concerned, I'm guessing SCARLET owners fall into two camps:
- Those who want the Dragon upgrade to be as cheap as possible and chiefly want more dynamic range out of their current camera
- Those who want an upgrade path to EPIC
The SCARLET is a gateway drug in that the menu system is the exact same as the EPIC and you are often teased with a frame size/rate or compression setting that you wish you had... but don't. This is fine and I'm not complaining, the camera is 1/3 the price of an EPIC and has way more than 1/3 of the functionality/quality -- but if you bought a SCARLET in late 2011 and have paid it off or put it to a lot of good use, in 2013 you may be looking to upgrade to EPIC. This is exactly what my DP friend Timur Civan did -- the work he was able to get with a SCARLET/F3 allowed him to move up to the EPIC. Along with the fact that Jarred is talking about the point at which "a brain upgrade becomes a more economical (for you) path," there certainly seems to be a possibility that there will be an EPIC upgrade path.
Who knows what this would cost. But RED are a bunch of smart guys, what are they going to do with all those boards they're pulling out of the EPICs that are coming in for Dragon upgrades? What if those old EPIC boards can be dropped into SCARLETs -- the cameras are the exact same form factor, after all, and while they've discovered the current EPIC circuitry can't handle the Dragon sensor output at the promised 120FPS at 5K data rate, those EPIC boards should be able to handle Dragon's output at lower specs... right? Say... SCARLET specs? I wonder if this might be the upgrade path for SCARLET -- you get pre-Dragon EPIC boards. Otherwise I don't see how any SCARLET upgrade could make sense except an upgrade path to EPIC.
Another thing to note: RED is still selling the RED ONE. Part of "obsolescence obsolete" seems to be upgrading older cameras and keeping them in the store. So what will RED do with all the MX sensors coming in from Epic owners upgrading to Dragon? Throw them in the trash even though they're still working? Or could they keep the SCARLET MX for sale after Dragon is out, and move the camera even further downmarket? They are coming out with RED Mini Mags (details yet unknown), which could make for cheaper recording to DNxHD/ProRes when and if RED releases a module that's less extreme than their kitchen sink-ish Meizer Module. Indeed the Side SSD is now a separate purchase from the SCARLET body, so they could sell a SCARLET MX with a cheaper recording options and drop the price (further?). These could even be "battle-tested" with used sensors. Why do you think they seem to always have battle-tested LCOS BOMB EVFs in stock these days? I'm guessing it's because people are sending in their LCOS EVFs for upgrades to the OLED model, and that leaves RED with a bunch of leftover LCOS viewfinder screens that they can pop into a new housing and sell at a substantial discount ($2,000 instead of $3,200).
This is all speculation but the Dragon sensor could bring with it not just a move upmarket but also some new options on the low-end since they'll certainly have a lot of boards and sensors floating around, and that could give them flexibility to hit different price points.
Speaking of price points... Right now RED's camera prices are (brain only): SCARLET $9,700, EPIC-X $34,500, EPIC-M $39,500. Once these price drops take effect, what do you think the EPIC and SCARLET will cost as of November 1st, 2012?
Your Comment
35 Comments
RED did the same thing with Canon too. Always got to rain on some company's parade when there's a big announcement regarding cameras. Oh well, who am I to complain? ;)
Anyway, if the Epic drops down to the C500's price (and possibly the F5's price), it will be quite a competition as if it already wasn't, in my opinion.
October 27, 2012 at 1:39PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
I think the comment paraphrasing 'everyone who doesn't own an Epic will after the announcement' is the key, in combination with his answer about canceling a 'Scarlet deal of a lifetime' order, to which he said: 'You could do that, but it would be a substantial increase of investment')
- I take 'everyone' to denote Red owners and possibly camera owners of equivalent or greater equity, i.e. sell your Alexa and get an Epic because the performance is greater at a third the cost.
-This would also mean, as Koo hazards, that 'Scarlet' effectively becomes 'Epic' in terms of value/performance (i.e. Epic X performance, not Dragon) for perhaps a minimum (read irresistible) additional outlay of expense.
At every turn RED have always opted for the greater result: i.e. they won't compromise on quality, as seen with the banishment of 3K for 3K. To me this means that Scarlets are either transformed into Epics or left in the dust due to a very limited ASIC.
October 27, 2012 at 1:51PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
RED are playing an interesting game, if they have their projector almost ready then selling Scarlets at cost could be economically beneficial for them. I don't think this is the current situation, although it may well be by this time next year.
Between RED and the BMCC, there must be some stupefied expressions over in Japan right now. I suggest that for the sake of irony, seppuku scenes should be captured in 8-bit interlaced h264!
October 27, 2012 at 5:20PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
banishment of 3K for 3K for what? in order to replace it with 4K for 10K+! Yeah, they sacked a complete camera with built on lens and praised it`s replacement which (what the dumbnuts don`t seem to realize) for 3X the price, leaving them with a body only...
October 28, 2012 at 1:19AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
This is great. I love companies fighting for us because then Sony or some other brand will have to cut their prices more... and more... then innovate... then cut prices even more...
October 27, 2012 at 1:52PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Well, thats nice. If the scarlet drops a few grand I might bite the bullet and finance one.
October 27, 2012 at 1:54PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
@John ,Indeed, but Trust it will be more than a few grand, When RED makes they make it in a major, the scarlett compared to original eipc dropped about 40k, TRUST i got a feeling that RED will bring big guns out again and RED will make up their money in media and other compenent add on any way, still though could be interesting, Good times
October 27, 2012 at 2:39PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Lets see what happens.
October 27, 2012 at 2:59PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Great article guys, on the speculation of making lower end RED models, im all for it since I probably wont be able to afford a Scarlet anytime soon.
October 27, 2012 at 2:03PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Who knows man...prices are dropping....I hear mention of $7K (watch those "K's and make sure you add money signs! haha) for a RED Scarlet and God knows I'll take a first generation Scarlet that 'Only' shoots 4K at 24p....There is a huge gap between HD DSLRs and RED Scarlet and I feel like its steadily filling up but allot of these new "gap fillers" are going to total more than a Scarlet with half the bit depth, nastier compression, 1/5th the resolution and not as much of a future upgrade path....GoProHD 3 shoots 4K at 12fps and 2.7K at 30fps...clearly its not a difficult thing to pump out resolutions higher and I feel like 4:2:2 isn't either and that the companies are slowly letting features drip out but not fast enough...
I don't buy the C300 crap one bit. Only contender is the Black Magic Cinema camera which IMO answers the 3K for 3K question...without gouging customers...Sony is...I'm not even going to mention Sony, Canon is sleeping on the job acting like they can get away with meh specs forever, Arri is loving life and still acting like a big company, and I don't think RED is really playing any games here....
Jannard sounds like a dude that cares more about his customers than others and while I have disliked some of his businesses choices they seam to have the best bang for your buck, just hope they don't come out half cocked or with empty promises but they are new to the business and are trying to squeeze out allot of these epic (ha, pun intended!) cameras!
October 28, 2012 at 6:09PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
It's a healthy competition and I think red is trying to push independent filmmaking community with the tools they need to compete in terms of image quality to big boys. This is great news, I think this is very exiting time for filmmakers. Good luck guys and happy film making.
October 27, 2012 at 2:18PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Yes, a big chunk of their business model is regular 'grunts' of the filmmkaing economy taking on the weight of investment at just the right level so that image quality is cinema-worthy and the price is attainable but necessitates that value is generated - value that requires people generate business where there was none before, which is the key.
Soon the projection system will come out and the curve will start turning up (hopefully changing how filmmaking and distribution and EXHIBITION) works. My greatest hope is that RED can improve on DCP as it exists today.
October 27, 2012 at 2:28PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Love this site, always good info under one roof.
As far as price drops, he didnt exactly say that the scarlett would get a price drop, but we know better. This is a move to put a dent or if not "Throw a lil salt" in the game towards Black magics new camera and sony. The only relevant price drop for us everyday Folks would be with the Scarlett.
With that being said , when RED makes an entrance they do it in a major way. The original Epic was around 50k, not bad at all athe the time of the drop, then out of nowhere they came with the Scarlett at 10k(whoaaah) still not easily affordable though, Trust do not be suprised if RED throws a "MONKEY WRENCH" and start selling the Scarletts at 5k and Whoaaaa Nelly if they do, then the black magic and sony camera selection will not be so easy.
The only problem with red is the that the proprietary media buying is ridicoulous, but with the new 2k module that allows 422 ,2k,1k raw then its another ball game, trust November 1st things will start to lew a few difference
October 27, 2012 at 2:37PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
The Scarlet can't drop less than the prices of the used Scarlets from a week ago - cause if they do, there is gonna be some seriously pissed off people...
October 27, 2012 at 3:05PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
This is true, but then again There were alot of serious upset people that purchased the original epic for 50k also, essentially the same caemera. I say 6k but we shall see soon
October 27, 2012 at 3:26PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Well, i bought a Used M package for about $43k, the proce drop isnt making me too happy. Especially considering a new camera could cost less than i paid used. But que sera, I had the camera since june, and have been working it to death. so whatever, i wound up making that money back. And once its paid off in about 3 months, i will be in the profit zone. When that happens, if the momentum continues, off to saving for a set of S4's!
October 31, 2012 at 4:28PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
You would, Timur, you would. Glassaholic!
October 31, 2012 at 4:36PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Boohoo. Its foolish to think that investing in electronics is a good return on your money...computers get updated every month.
October 27, 2012 at 10:20PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
They are if they are the tools of your trade.
October 29, 2012 at 12:02AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
The Dragon sensor sounds amazing and everything, but I'm so happy with 4k/S35 from the current Scarlet that I can't seriously consider needing an improvement anytime soon.
October 27, 2012 at 3:31PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Much better DR and less noise always a good thing tho
October 28, 2012 at 2:37AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Absolutely, they are. But since the current Mx is already flirting with film's DR performance and things like Neat Video are so effective with noise reduction, I'm a happy camper at this point :)
October 28, 2012 at 6:23AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
As a new scarlet owner this is awesome becuae epic will be that much more affordable and all my accessories translate. amazing.
Once concern:
with these predictions there would be
RED ONE M
RED ONE MX
Scarlet X
Epic X
Epic M
Epic monochrome
Epic Dragon
Scarlet Dragon or Scarlet made Epic
We'd have to find a way for producers not to be super confused as to what camera they are getting/renting etc.
October 27, 2012 at 7:03PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
This is great timing. Looking forward to seeing what the prices drop to. Most if not all of our clients are totally content with a 5D so we haven't been able to justify buying a higher end camera. Would love an epic or even a scarlet though...
October 27, 2012 at 9:56PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
The "once in a lifetime deal" was advertised as apart of special rental deal for a film, although looking across blogs it feels like hundreds of these cameras were sold. Certainly more than 75 that most people speculated. Did RED decide to sell off their refurbished stock before they adjusted the price point of their new cameras?
October 27, 2012 at 11:25PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
although that deal seemed sweet, I though it's better to pass it cause the dragon sensor had been announced to be released later this year (ok, it got pushed back now but it's still coming and we all know it)... i don't know how much they are going to cut the prices but at least you get full warranty with those new units.. i'd still wait for the upgrade though before rushing to RED world... especially if you are not sure if you can make the money back with your investment in very short time.
October 28, 2012 at 1:39AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
DR specifications contain such words as "at least 15 stops of Dynamic Range". It's right there on reduser.
October 28, 2012 at 1:28AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Great article.
My guess would be Scarlet if it comes down at all. Would be 8K. Epic 25K.
I've always had a lot of questions about how Dragon was ever going to be implemented for Scarlet.
A lesser dragon has always seemed the logical route and have heard the old epic boards theory pondered upon before and that makes sense - especially with REDs history.
More DR and better low light will always be hugely appreciated. But for mine, in it's current price range where the Scarlet is most under fire competition wise is in the high fps department.
And cost of a Dragon update is also of issue. The Epics 6k, would likely already be too steep, and previously due to Scarlets inferior boards it would have needed to be more expensive.
I think the upgrade for a lesser Dragon for Scarlet owners at about 3K would probably be close to the sweet spot.
If they could give, 5k 24P ,60 @ 4K, 96 @3k, 120fps @2k, with slight improvements in DR and low light,
@ 3K and think that would be a great deal.
@6K or more? For those who could afford it, you'd probably start saving for a new reduced price epic instead wouldn't you?
October 28, 2012 at 4:37AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
blablabla...just wait and see...jeez...
October 30, 2012 at 4:12PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
I do not like this companies ethics.
October 28, 2012 at 9:51PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
How so Garrett?
October 31, 2012 at 3:53PM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Ok So October 31st has come and gone and we have not heard anything from RED. Is the drop in price delayed like everything else ?
November 1, 2012 at 8:19AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
Jim said they'll be announcing today (Nov 1) around 5pm PST. There was some confusion as to whether it was going to be the 1st or 31st.
November 1, 2012 at 8:57AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
27K for Epic 8K for Scarlet.
November 1, 2012 at 11:50AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM
It's great that they're lowering prices for whatever reason. I'd love for the American-made cameras to stay in the market. But my problem is the same await always is with this company and that's their attitude. Why not just announce the lower prices, the credit for those that bought in the last 30 days and treat it as good news? Why add all that "tough luck" stuff? It's great news. Even for owners who paid double, they'll reap the benefits of a larger share of productions using the brand and peripherials.
November 2, 2012 at 7:01AM, Edited September 4, 7:54AM