March 5, 2014

RED DRAGON is the Best Camera Sensor Ever Tested by DxOMark

DxOMark, a "comprehensive RAW-based image quality measurement database and a set of scores to evaluate and compare digital cameras and lenses," recently evaluated RED's new 6K DRAGON sensor since it has the ability to pull extremely high-quality still images from video. The result, which probably comes as no surprise to RED themselves, measured the DRAGON as the best overall sensor they've ever tested, breaking 100 points on their scale. Considering that DxOMark has tested all sorts of cameras (some even more expensive than DRAGON like the medium format Phase One IQ180), the results are indeed impressive.

Here is the DRAGON compared to their previous champ, the D800:

DxOMark RED EPIC DRAGON vs D800

It's interesting that dynamic range looks to be around 15 stops, which is pretty much what I thought their dynamic range chart looked like when it was posted last year (no HDRx was used for their testing). I would assume they were using a camera without the new OLPF in front of the sensor, but I'm not sure how much of a difference this would make based on the way they test cameras. The tricky thing about measuring dynamic range is that it can be subjective about what parts of the image are still usable, not just visible. A clipped highlight is a clipped highlight, but each of these cameras can have details in shadows that may or may not be usable depending on how the noise looks.

Speaking of noise, they also had some interesting things to say about that in their detailed analysis:

As the sensor and image processor can deliver very high frame rates, the Epic Dragon is certainly adopting multiple sampling techniques to reduce noise levels (also known as temporal noise reduction). Without such processing, such high SNR would only be possible from a sensor with an exceptional Full Well Capacity. Performances like this seem, to us, above the current technical capabilities of CMOS sensors.  

As a side note, it’s interesting to speculate whether rivals such as Nikon, Canon or Sony are already adopting such techniques during video capture or in jpeg. But, this is the first time we can assess this type of performance on still RAW.

And here is some information about the actual testing procedure (emphasis mine):

For the tests, the camera was set to full 6k resolution at 23.98 fps, 16 bit and RC 5:1 compression.

A shutter angle (exposure time) equivalent to 1/50th sec was used.  As the camera was supplied with an EF mount, we adopted aCanon EF 24-70mm f2.8 L USM during the tests (though the procedures are not reliant on the lens used). It’s also worth noting that the Dragon’s native sensitivity is ISO 250 and measured at 104, while all other sensitivities were obtained by digital gain.

The camera records REDCODE RAW that must be processed though REDCINE-X, a free application available on the RED website. Currently, RED does not give direct access to the bayer pattern data, so we cannot clamp this sensor analysis and score in our official DxO Mark ranking.

First, with regards to the native ISO, this is something that was stated a while ago when RED visited the ASC. The fact that it can be pushed to such high ISOs is related to how clean the sensor is. 250 may be the base ISO, but the ideal balance between noise and dynamic range, just like with the MX sensor, is quite a bit higher than that. In regards to the sensor analysis, while the results are impressive, since RED doesn't allow you to see the sensor data directly, this result is not actually going to appear in their official rankings. It's unclear if the results would be any different if they could directly access the Bayer data.

It's important to understand that the evaluation is strictly about still images, not necessarily how a camera reacts over an entire scene -- which means you can get away with slightly higher ISOs. They also haven't tested cameras like the Sony F65, F55, Canon C500, and ARRI ALEXA, which are all capable of shooting RAW, and except for the ALEXA, can all shoot 4K. It would be interesting to see the results of the DRAGON compared to these other cameras, especially since 4K is enough to get good-looking still images.

It's also worth mentioning that specs alone don't tell you everything, and final image quality is dependent on lots of different factors.

For more details on the entire test, head on over to the DxOMark website.

Link: RED Epic Dragon review: First camera to break the 100-point DxOMark sensor score barrier! -- DxOMark

Your Comment

99 Comments

Whoa ho ho! The Red Epic dragon got 6 more overall points than a DSLR!
I would like to see them compare it to competitors in the same price range.

March 5, 2014 at 3:15AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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March 5, 2014 at 3:35AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Joe Marine
Camera Department

Kudos Joe. This is a hard article to write since there are a lot of people who hate, and I mean really hate RED on NFS for some lame reason. It's just a camera company people!

I'm really hoping to see more constructive discussions about these test.

Cheers!

March 5, 2014 at 5:34AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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George

It's not just some commenters on here. There's worse on other blogs. Jim Jannard left blogging because of it. There's a fairly well known, and respected, photographer who did the same. He's now on a web site that requires registration and monitors comments closely. He continues to teach generously but without the flack. Like Einstein said, "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from the mediocre mind".

March 5, 2014 at 5:56AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene

Did you just compare Jannard to Einstein? Or did you call him a great spirit? Or both? Either way that's a crackup :)

March 5, 2014 at 6:54AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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George,

I come to this blog every day hoping for more constructive discussion. Occasionally I happen upon some.

March 5, 2014 at 10:14AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene

Most people don't hate Red. They just dislike their (thankfully now former) tendency to send their products into the wild before extensive testing and the outrageously cocky vibe that Jannard used to have about his products. I've always loved Red's cameras. I was just a little embarrassed by Jannard's boisterous face of the company in the same way I am embarrassed to have an iPhone/Macbook Pro.

March 5, 2014 at 1:17PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Harry Pray IV

So they normally test stills cameras right? so how about they test the F65,

heres a few facts about DxOMark site

FACTS they never tested the arri alexa, sony f35, or better yet the F65

FACTS most of there test are of stills cameras

Does the dragon proabably have an amazing sensor , ofcourse it does, but at the same time this is like a a website that test runners sneakers that tested a basketball sneaker from nike proclaiming it to have the best overall sneaker score amoungst runners shoes, although they never tested adidas, reebok sneakers etc.

March 5, 2014 at 6:26AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JAYE

The Red was intended to also be a still camera.

http://www.red.com/shot-on-red/photography

March 5, 2014 at 10:21AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene

The tests mean very little without a comparison of other digital cinema cameras.

March 5, 2014 at 11:59AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Mikey

Not really. Let's say Dragon is the worst performing in the DxOMark test of all the digital cinema cameras currently available. This test tells you that the worst of the bunch is still as good as or better than the best, purpose built stills cameras on the planet. If you understand the quality of those cameras, you understand just what that means for a digital motion picture camera. As a result, I suspect people are going to become a whole lot less tolerant of blaming poor imagery on RED cameras with Dragons inside and start looking at the ability and proficiency of the DP or operator making the claims.

Of course, your eyes, taste, specific needs and budget should be the ultimate judge of what camera to use.

March 5, 2014 at 2:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

Still, as the test is solely for stills cameras, it's not all that impressive that the Red Dragon got a 6% score than a camera that costs less than a tenth as much.

March 5, 2014 at 7:53AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Tzedekh

Sorry, I meant "6% better score."

March 5, 2014 at 7:53AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Tzedekh

Your right. Also a big reason it scored better is because the Red is 16 bit and the D800 is 14 bit. I'm forgetting the math but isn't 16 bit something like 64 times the colour resolution of 14 bit?

March 5, 2014 at 7:59AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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6% is basically irrelevant, as they both reach the very top of what is currently possible. So, this is like comparing two Formula 1 cars, one of which can reach 300 mph on an airport runway and the other 330. (and, by the way, isn't Nikon 800 sensor made by Sony anyway? ... basically, the same sensor, slightly modified, as in A7R). Second of all, it's only about the dynamic range. Not about the resolution or the post-sensor color processing.
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PS. DxO has been knocked for their "limited" testing procedures (most often by the Canon users, who resent that Nikon usually comes out on top in these tests).

March 5, 2014 at 10:32AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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DLD

I wouldn't go so far as to use the word "irrelevant," as that 6% probably lies outside any standard deviation. However, your point about them both being at the top of sensor performance is the real takeaway from this test, IMO. It's just that only one of them can produce that quality, at that resolution, at over 60fps.

As for your Formula 1 example, it's not quite accurate. Both F1 manufacturers in your example make their cars for the same target market - namely, race car drivers. Now, if tests revealed an F1 car and a Ford Fusion both get the same gas mileage on the freeway traveling 70MPH or both have the same exhaust emissions, that's what this test is more akin to, with the exception that the F1 maker isn't necessarily trying to accomplish either of those things whereas RED was very much aiming for stills work.

March 5, 2014 at 1:11PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

hehe ... OK, Brian, Formula 1 in general is a so-so analogy ... a better analogy would be comparing only engines for the Formula 1 cars ... a very important but not a sole variable ... as to the standard EV deviation of sensors, considering that the medium format cameras emphasize resolution (80 MP for Phase One), their dynamic range will be lower due to the more tightly packed smaller pixels ... that's also why IMO, the next step in high end camera design would be larger MF size sensors but with a lower pixel count (20 or 33 MP) for 4:4:4 4K with double chroma sub-sampling and a higher native ISO ... (but don't take my ruminations to the bank ... I've been known to miss my targets now and again)

March 5, 2014 at 1:53PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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DLD

It beat Hasselblad? Unbelievable. No question that is impressive.

(and that is not sarcasm)

March 5, 2014 at 10:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene

compare RED EPIC DRAGON VS ARRI ALEXA, do the same test with Alexa

March 5, 2014 at 3:20AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Mher Hakobyan

It's about stills right, not video

March 5, 2014 at 3:25AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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NJ

Just about stills, correct, though most of the specs they measure apply to both pretty equally, RED is just doing it in full motion.

March 5, 2014 at 3:57AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Joe Marine
Camera Department

it may be about stills true indeed but all he is saying is that to be fair atleast throw in two top tier cameras such as alexa, or f65 or even an older camera like the genesis or f35 that still produce amazing images although on 1080

March 5, 2014 at 6:31AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JAYE

That Nikon would have been a lot more expensive if it shot in full motion with these specs.

March 5, 2014 at 10:06AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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NJ

Advertising for Red?

March 5, 2014 at 3:47AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Javier Mollo

Not at all. Considering a motion camera is giving better results than all cameras made just for taking still images is pretty impressive, but I actually thought there were plenty of interesting findings from DxOMark that were worth sharing and I mentioned them above.

March 5, 2014 at 4:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Joe Marine
Camera Department

Yeah, I doubt nofilmschool is getting free EPIC DRAGONS, or advertising dollars on a site that is not geared towards professionals, but film school students and aspiring professionals, many whom will probably only get to see a DRAGON at a distance before being shooed away by a suspicious salesman, or A.C.

Still don't get the hate for RED. Some of biggest movies of all time have been shot in Red, and the camera has almost single-handedly changed the industry, all in less than seven years since the first RED ONE was released.

Competition is always a good thing. If RED hadn't come along we'd still be stuck with probably only two choices, and Canon probably would have never felt compelled to create their C100-C500 line.

Truth is, there is no one silver bullet camera. On "Iron Man 3," John Toll used an Arri Alexa Studio, Red Epic, and Canon 1DC.

March 5, 2014 at 6:32AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Neil

No. Some of the biggest movies of all time have been shot on film.

March 5, 2014 at 1:23PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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FA

"biggest movies of all time shot on RED" lmfao. Yeah... in what universe?
The biggest film to ever have been shot on RED was the Hobbit, which almost everyone agrees looks like sterile HD video. RED films... just look like plastic video... I've never seen a cinematic film shot on RED.

Alexa or the F35 on the other hand have made countless classics, Oscar nominees and winners, and movies that generally...well, look like films. RED is not in any way shape or form on the same level as the Alexa or the F35.. let alone celluloid film. It's great for 3D, special effects and travel channel docus, but just drains the life out of a narrative movie.

March 5, 2014 at 2:25PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Kaleb

I generally tend to agree, except in the case of David Fincher. "The Social Network" and "Girl With The Dragon Tatoo" both looked really cinematic to me.

January 23, 2016 at 11:58PM

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i wouldnt be shocked if it was a little payola going on with red and this test

March 5, 2014 at 6:33AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JAYE

I would. If RED were that stupid, it would eventually become known and their name would be forever in the mud. It's simply not worth it from a corporate standpoint.

March 5, 2014 at 12:15PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

not subjective, really?

March 5, 2014 at 1:42PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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ryan

DxO is really only about measuring sensor technology.

The 80 megapixel digital backs will give you image quality that is so superior to the Dragon, it's really a joke to say that a RED is "better" than an IQ180/280, etc.

Choose the right tool for the job.

March 5, 2014 at 5:24AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Robert

It would be really interesting if this outfit ever tested the other digital cinema contenders. But even without that, it's amazing the Dragon produces a surperior image (technically) than the best, dedicated DSLR, except Dragon is shooting MOTION(!).

March 5, 2014 at 7:33AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Agent55

And the camera with this "best sensor ever" is still inferior to Arri Alexa, camera that is four years old.
In independent real life tests where actual test scene is shot.

Also if you insist having more rez, you can always compare Dragon to F65. Something Red simply do not want to be done, because it would be rather embaressing to notice how another (almost) three years old camera offers the same performance.

Actually most likely not just equal, but superior performance.

March 5, 2014 at 7:37AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Juhan-i

Where is the resolution test? How can they do a sensor test without testing what the camera can resolve. Red have a history of inflating their resolution.

March 5, 2014 at 7:41AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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http://vimeo.com/85711136

Is above your work ?

Was just browsing camera materials around the web and watched that. Excellent stuff and some damn good images from "relativly inexpensive" camera...

March 5, 2014 at 7:49AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Juhan-i

Yes thats mine thanks. I absolutely love the F5. I cant fault it. Sony are hinting at some big news for the F5 and F55 to be announced at NAB so that should be interesting :)

Cost wise the F5 is a lot cheaper than the F55 but they are basically the same camera with the same image except the F55 has internal 4K and global shutter, but on the F5's side it has a much higher base ISO of 2000!! and if I ever want 4K I can add the R5 recorder for less than the price of an F55 giving me 4K RAW. If the F55 wants RAW it also needs to purchase the R5.

Also the F5 in 1080p and 2K is ridiculously sharp but smooth at the same time. It debayers every pixel of its 4K sensor to HD and 2K (no pixel skipping).

March 5, 2014 at 8:11AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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@Simon Bailey . How would you compare the highlight roll off and DR of the F5/F55 as compared to the Alexa? Been really interested in getting one of these Sony's as I think they offer the best color reproduction period.

March 5, 2014 at 12:03PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Mikey

The F55 has a better colour range than the F5, a lot more green . . . I believe.

March 5, 2014 at 1:30PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JPS

Simon, inflating them how? It's fairly common knowledge you lose about 20% resolution after debayering. But, the pixel count is still the pixel count. Even Jim "The Devil" Jannard admitted as much:
http://bit.ly/P0oTuH

March 5, 2014 at 10:47AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

And, be sure to read Graeme Nattress' two posts on the subject a little further down the page.

March 5, 2014 at 10:51AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

By inflating the resolution claims I mean like the Red One Red claimed was 4K but when independently tested was only 2.6. Thats going back a few years and hopefully things are better with them but do you remember the first frame released for the Dragon? It was a lizard of some kind. That image was VERY soft. It was an early version of the Dragon so lets put it down to that. I'm just saying I am keen to see the resolution independently tested. I'm not a Red hater.

March 5, 2014 at 11:12AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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I'm not familiar with those findings but my point is no XK CMOS sensor (to date, anyway) that requires debayering is going to resolve an actual XK worth of measurable resolution. If the original M sensor indeed only had 2.6K of measurable resolution, it still had 4096 photosites. I'm not saying RED didn't take part in a little technical marketing gymnastics but 1) they claimed to have had a sensor with 4K photosites, which they did and 2) NO camera manufacturer publishes measured resolution from their sensor, only the photosite count. If RED was inflating the numbers then they're ALL inflating them to some degree.

March 5, 2014 at 11:34AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

Red has always been soft, it is the approach they have taken. They filter the signal both with strong OLPF and (most likely) while doing the de-bayer process. This way they can mask the problems they have with sensor.

Sony on the other hand has cleaner sensors and if you take 4K Sony raw material and compared it to Red 4K material, Sony has sharper image. Also without the internal camera sharpening on.

If you do broadcast / nature / sports stuff, this is obviously is a strong plus. If you are looking more cinematic image, you need to process the Sony image or simply use some softer lens (like vintage Cooke or whatever).

Sony also sells special OLPF you can install when shooting 4K (or 2K), this give you very nice, even beautiful, cinematic image. Like this:

http://vimeo.com/74338401

March 5, 2014 at 1:55PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Juhan-i

And yes, I should've said, " The photosite count is still the photosite count."

March 5, 2014 at 10:57AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

This test was not about resolution, read the article, the best resolution camera does not equate to the best quaility of picture just like the sharpest lens does not equate to the best lens, there are other things such as contrast, dynamic range, iso sensitvity to noise ratio that matters, which is why i feel that the F65 is the best camera in the world in terms of resolution, dynamic range, and lowlight, with a true global shutter aint nothing touching that camera.

Not will all do respect the dragon is about 27k cheaper than f65 minus the global shutter but still i still need to see more tests from dragon before i even put it ahead of the alexa or sonyf35 in dynamic range.

March 5, 2014 at 12:00PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JAYE

Many of you are missing the point. It's not about whether Alexa or F65 would score as well or higher in these tests. RED is the ONLY maker of digital cinema cameras that also specifically markets its cameras as being suitable for STILLS work as well - DSMC stand for Digital Stills & Motion Camera. This is not only about resolution but about the physical size of the camera. Epics are quite a bit heavier than DSLRs but they're still small enough to be held and wielded in a similar manner to DSLRs. You simply can't do that with an Alexa or F65, especially with a big, honking piece of PL mounted glass on the front. RED offers interchangeable Canon, Nikon and Leica mounts. The intent for stills work is very clear.

However useful, informative, respected and relevant these tests are for photographers evaluating various DSLRs and digital medium format cameras, those same considerations can now be applied to the Epic Dragon in a similar context. There are times when both motion and stills are required on a job (a fashion shoot being the most obvious). This test means photographers have another viable option available to them. From a cinematographer's perspective, the DxOMark score shows that Dragon's image making ability is at least in the same league as EVERY other digital camera's stills mode. That some people see that as a threat to their favorite camera's reputation or standing is just…well, a little sad. : (

March 5, 2014 at 9:04AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

Anybody who mentioned Alexa or f65 has subjective issues. A motion camera is beating stills cameras at stills, that an achievement period. Who has ever used an Alexa or f65 to take professional stills, you guys are reaching.

And why are jaws not dropping for 15 stops of dynamic range. Is that not the most out of any digital cinema camera? I've read "DR matters most" more than "this is a great time to be a filmmaker" in the comments section.

March 5, 2014 at 10:27AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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ryan

nobody has subjective issues , we understand completely what the test told, we are simply pointing out that it does not say the final and be all of all cameras, it tested a 16bit motion camera with a 14 bit stills camera and comes off as if it is the motion cinema camera in the world

Forgot all about that and you are correct and added some more vald points to this smoking guns test.

The d800 was made by sony

the d800 is only 14 bit raw, while dragon is 16 bit meaning more color space, which is more reasons why this test is not telling everything when you consider the great F65 would probably tie if not do better than the red dragon.

March 5, 2014 at 11:55AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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JAYE

Again, the F65 might, but not for the people for whom these particular tests are meant to inform. DxO didn't say anything about Dragon being the best cinema camera in the world. All they said was it had the best sensor scores of any they've ever tested.

Think about the best looking still photographs you've ever seen taken by digital cameras. Now, consider that you have an opportunity (or obligation) to shoot on a Dragon. Technically speaking, you know from these tests that Dragon is capable of producing moving images in the same league as any of the beautiful pictures you've seen captured with any other digital stills camera, and in a similar operating manner, if necessary. How can a person have a problem with that?

I don't why kudos for RED = a slight to everyone else.

March 5, 2014 at 12:39PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

What is truly amazing is that the Nikon D800 does so well when compared to the Red Dragon sensor - and it costs thousands of dollars less!

March 5, 2014 at 9:42AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Ed Wright

And why do you think that is? Just take a wild guess.

March 5, 2014 at 10:07AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Ryan

In the same vein, the GH2 hacked looks almost as good in video as an ARRI---and a far greater gap in cost.

March 5, 2014 at 10:10AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Gene

GH2 almost as good as Arri? Nice joke, for a second you had me there. Sure you can mask many many faults of the camera with flooding the scene with artificial lighting but at the end of the day, a professional camera will always deliver the best result in any situation.

March 5, 2014 at 11:12AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Peter

You might actually be on to something...if you could get that quality out of the D800 at 24 fps. On the other hand, you can get that quality from BOTH motion and stills from Dragon.

March 5, 2014 at 10:14AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

You can say what you want about any camera, some do some things better than others. But give it a rest already about the Alexa. Yes, it's a remarkable camera but no need to get choked up when another camera like Red gets some props. The f65 image can stack up against any camera, the Alexa is a work horse maybe even beats the f65 image but to trying to take anything away from Red or say NFS is in cahoots with them is ridicules. Get over it, there's other cameras out there that will be better at somethings then the f65 or even the Alexa. It's actually weird how some get so standoffish regarding the Alexa. Relax it's a great camera, no need to bash other cameras because you think it's a better camera. I just was on set with an Alexa and though the image is beautiful it took an army to get it that way. When you get up to that level, trust me it's not the camera it's the people operating it. Not putting the Alexa down (how can anyone?) I'm just saying there's other tools out there besides the almighty Alexa. Embrace the technology, there's plenty of room for improvements with all cameras even today. You should all applaud Red for pushing the bar, let's face it for a small company they certainly know how to drive the competition.

March 5, 2014 at 10:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Anthony Marino

Word.

March 5, 2014 at 10:16AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Brian

I'd bet 90% the people claiming "Alexa is better!!!!" have never seen one let alone shot on one. It's a phenomenal camera, but that doesnt mean the dragon can't be too. This test is very impressive.

March 5, 2014 at 2:01PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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carlos

Lol, I bet Joe and Co have a ball choosing the headlines. I'm sure they knew some heads would do a 360 reading this headline. "Red Dragon is the best camera sensor ever" love'em or hate'em Reds always a show stopper. But the good news out this article is that other manufactures will try to compete and we'll have even better cams yet to come. As long as someone is raising the bar we shouldn't care who it is. Just look what BM has done with the market. It's a win win for us no matter what comes out from this point on.

March 5, 2014 at 2:44PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Anthony Marino

Thank you for being one of the few people who actually has something constructive to say on this post.

March 5, 2014 at 2:39PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Coty

RED is the best. There are a lot of great cameras but all come after the Dragon. All you haters can stick it.

March 5, 2014 at 10:43AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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We are not haters, but you are the fanboy.

March 5, 2014 at 1:42PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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FA

Meh.

March 5, 2014 at 11:01AM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Meh

Would this mean the Red footage will be like 20megapixel raw stills from a d800? Imagine how that would look in motion!

March 5, 2014 at 1:14PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Ebrahim Saadawi

I am using RED EPIC and I see that this is best of the best camera for me... I have used a lot of different cameras in my life...

March 5, 2014 at 2:13PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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I say this as someone who does not own a RED camera and has never used a RED camera...why do people get so insanely hateful the minute anyone says anything positive about it? I understand fanboys can be annoying and that RED's marketing tactics are a bit too aggressive that time (every time I see one of their products with a skull on it I can't help but think about the "Are We the Baddies?" sketch). But does the existence of this camera really offend people THAT MUCH?

March 5, 2014 at 2:56PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Coty

No it sounds like they'll just be happy when Arri puts out their 4k $80,000 dollar camera.

March 5, 2014 at 3:07PM, Edited September 4, 11:45AM

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Anthony Marino

love it love reds and nikon d800 is awesome too if dragon has the same image quality in video than a nikon d800 has in stills is awesome!

March 5, 2014 at 5:16PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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sebas

+1

March 5, 2014 at 5:18PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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sebas

if gh2 had raw video wolud be amazing

March 5, 2014 at 5:19PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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sebas

@Kaleb. I didn't say the biggest grossing movies of all time, but some of the biggest period. "The Lone Ranger" as an example, sucked. But that didn't stop them from blowing through one of the biggest budgets of all time. The used a Red Epic, AS WELL AS:

ARRI ALEXA Studio Camera
ARRIFLEX 235 Camera
ARRIFLEX 435 Camera
Panaflex Millenium XL2 Camera
Panaflex Platinum Camera

So they shot on film, and with an Alexa, and with a Red Epic. My point wasn't that Red is the best, just that it created competition where there was none and is the primary reason why we can complain about the shortcomings of subsequent groundbreaking cameras like the BlackMagic and Digital Bolex.

Oh, and that "plastic" look you're complaining about was because of the high frame rate more than anything else. The HFR simply didn't work.

March 5, 2014 at 6:47PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Neil

Hi Mikey, I havent shot with the Alexa so I can only speak of the F5 but I cant fault it. Highlights are incredibly smooth especially with SLOG2 which I love. Its the first camera I've come across thats actually hard to over expose. Of course you can but if you expose enough, but SLOG2 is really smooth and beautiful. On the tennis I was trying to get some silhouetted shots of people in tunnels with bright daylight open behind them but the camera wouldn't do it in camera because of its high dynamic range. When I was trying to do that I was testing SLOG3 which is new and Sony say adds 1.4 on top of the 14 stops of dynamic range so that made it harder. A nice problem to have but fixable in grading :)

March 5, 2014 at 8:09PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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The F55 has the same colour filter as the F65 which have a higher colour range than film. But the F5 is no slouch. So far from what I've seen F55 footage looks no different to the F5 so that extra colour range must be very difficult to see with the eye.

March 5, 2014 at 8:42PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Is DxO known for taking money like that? Saying there is payola wouldn't affect Red to the degree it would affect DxO. You are saying DxO would take money to throw the results in Red's favor? Or that DxO has taken money in the past to do that for another camera maker? And would do it in the future? They are that kind of a company? You want to say those kind of things about them?

Is it possible that the Red Dragon is just that good?

March 5, 2014 at 9:52PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

"I don’t why kudos for RED = a slight to everyone else."

Through time visiting this blog I see it's mostly Sony users that are the most vocal against Red. A distant second is ARRI users/fans. I don't see a lot of Nikon, Fuji users getting vocal, some Nikon but not a lot. I had read at some point that Sony reps had some very vicious things to say about Red. If that really is true, and I can't know if it is or not, but if it is there may have been a trickle down from Sony reps to Sony users.

Competition is tough in camera world. Irrational rules the day some times in the fight.

March 5, 2014 at 10:02PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

Sure the ARRI is better. I didn't say it wasn't.

March 5, 2014 at 10:08PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

heads would turn a 360, funny!

March 5, 2014 at 10:13PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

Gene I'm a Sony user and a D800 user and I dont hate Red but I'm not a fan either. I've never seen anything anywhere of anyone from Sony knock another camera or manufacturer, quite the opposite. Jannard on the other hand would often get stuck into everyone else.

March 5, 2014 at 10:30PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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But at the beginning of the day, its always the professional camera operator that will get the best result out of any situation that the professional camera can capture. ;)

March 5, 2014 at 10:31PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Anthony Marino

No positive comment about Red goes unpunished.

March 5, 2014 at 11:12PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Gene

That would make a great t-shirt :)

March 6, 2014 at 2:36AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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RED is winning, as always. all the poor people that hate on RED can have fun with the 5D haha

March 6, 2014 at 10:32AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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The F1 car analogy is actual a terrible one for this discussion. F1 teams spend millions of dollars looking for technology that will yield a 0.1 second per lap advantage over their competitors. A 6% difference in Formula one is gigantic. In the world of sensor performance, not so much. Also, for the sake of accuracy, F1 cars achieve top speeds closer to 200 MPH... definitely not 300.

March 5, 2014 at 11:31PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Philm

But it it said that the Dragon is using temporal NR, which is probably means of achieving higher DR at low ISO, while being unable to match the low-light performance of the others.
That probably means that motion blur would become and issue in action photography. Which would matter for stills, but not so much for movies (where such blur is often preferred).

March 6, 2014 at 4:07AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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_sem_

you are correct never used an alexa, but have fooled with the F35 1080p 444 dpx images which are a decade old and still one of the best producing digital cameras in terms of dynamic range still to this day , but people aka professionals pick alexa over the f35 image, so that basically tells you about alexa credentials.

Also im far from one of these alexa fanboys, its a great camera with nice workflow, but honestly times and technology has changed and their are several cameras capable of alexa quality with nice workflows today.

The black magic cinema camera 2.5k still to this day is damn near close to alexa and i would rather buy 7 of those plus other studio gear as opposed to a red dragon for 35k

Its quite obvious and peculiar that after one of the best OSCARS in history, the only one the i watched to entirely , that this report came out, considering that no RED cameras were used in none of the catagories.

No hate on Red because THE SOCIAL NETWORK was shot on first generation Red and it look beautifull, but the jury is out and Red needs a facelift and the dragon may be the thing to save the company even though it is not the best camera out

March 6, 2014 at 4:48AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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JAYE

You have to explain yourself. You like dynamic range based on your comment on about the f35, Dragon has more range than a f35, alexa or BMC, but you are not excited about Dragon?

March 6, 2014 at 1:32PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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ryan

Note they've tested old OLPF and no ADD frame pulling enabled. The new ADD function in Redcine is a gift for printing high quality images.

March 6, 2014 at 5:41AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Natt

Shoot Alexa if you want less than 4K resolution and xboxhuge raw files. No problems with that.

March 6, 2014 at 5:48AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Natt

You do realise that the comparisson is vs the capability of the Nikon's raw stills right?

March 6, 2014 at 5:50AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Jonas

It is coming. D800 has Sony sensor tech and Sony will release a 4K DSLR soon.

March 6, 2014 at 7:19AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Juhan-i

I imagine all DSLR makers will incorporate a 4K video mode in the not-too-distant future. The differences between them and something like Dragon will be in their ability to shoot 4K raw files, the robustness of the recording codec, the color bit depth, dynamic range and, probably most difficult to achieve in a camera their size, high frame rates at 4K resolution.

March 6, 2014 at 9:05AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Brian

That's true for now ... except, as we're seeing with the FS 700 + Odyssey Q7, the 4K Raw is down to ~ $13K already. And, if you accept a 40% annual cost reduction in camera gear, it will be around $8K by the end of the year. (KineMax is supposed to be doing 4K Raw at about what ... $6K or so?) After that, you're left with a typical commodity 4K units being offered in places like the Best Buy and a few higher end products where you pay 80% more for a 20% improvement in image quality.
.
PS. It seems as if Sony DSLR 4K cam won't be announced/introduced at the NAB the next month but instead at Photokina in September. To me, this means that the NAB will be used by Sony to show off their updates to F5/55 (new Log and what not) and conceivably their 4K interchangeable lens camcorder replacements for FS-100 and FS-700 - compressed 4K for $6K-$8K that is good enough for anything streamed or broadcast.

March 6, 2014 at 11:18AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

Camera A is raw.
Camera B is processed, compressed and using its own debayer.

One shouldn't compare cameras like that. Compression reduces noise and processing changes everything..

Just compare camera A in ACR, other debayer algorithms, and JPEG. Major differences in low light and even dynamic range.

March 6, 2014 at 9:10AM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DR

D800 is 14bit RAW

March 6, 2014 at 3:33PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Actually, F1 top straight ahead speed on Bonneville Flats was just under 260 mph, making it closer to 300 mph than to 200 mph. And 6% increase in power is big, unless it negatively effects the fuel consumption because, with a refueling ban, one has to put more into the car itself, making it heavier ... which slows it down and risks fires ... this is the fresh update from NoRacingSchool.com.

March 6, 2014 at 2:29PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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DLD

I second that!!!

March 6, 2014 at 5:19PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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Augusto Alves d...

Hahaha! RED is NOT the best! Who cares about specs and test charts! The BMCC looks the lost like film and costs less than RED media! Who cares how many K's and supposed DR ranges when the image suffers from an overly digital and under developed color science!

March 6, 2014 at 5:50PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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tunabreath

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August 12, 2014 at 9:48PM, Edited September 4, 11:56AM

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